Ugh friends w/kids (sorry long rant)

[Bobby_M]

My kids are incredibly well behaved because we stay on top of it even when we don't feel like it. Even then, they are not robots, they get emotional just like anyone else. If they flip out at a restaurant, the wife takes them out to the car while I settle up the bill whether we've eaten or not. The last time this happened, I was at the local Pizzeria UNO, the only one that brews (shout out soulive!) and I had just ordered the beer sampler. As I was waiting for my credit card, I had to down the beer like shots. I was a little pissed but being a responsible parent means eating Wendy's drivethru sometimes.

 

[shafferpilot]

Ya know, this conversation really got me thinking, so i called my mom last night to ask her about my behavior as a child. There was only one event that I could remember where I got out of hand and a quick correction was not enough. But I thought that surely there were more. Well, I was wrong. The one bad event was my birthday. remember when McDonald's would host a birthday party with Ronald and everything? I lost at one of the games, and for some reason got super pissed. Mom took me outside and about 20 minutes later I was chilled back down. She said that there were two or three times things got out of control with my sisters (before I was around), and the family had to pack it up and go home. So I guess it is possible for children to learn how to behave in public. I know it's tricky. Even though I don't have children of my own, I did date a woman with a young son for about three and a half years (he was between 2 and 5), so I do have some of that experience. What I found was that when the young man was with his mother and I, he could be a holy terror. he knew how to push her buttons and get her to give up. It worked and he would get the candy bar, be allowed to change the tv channel, get out of his seat at a restaurant, etc. When I had him one on one, things were a VERY different story. He respected my authority because I insisted on it very consistently. For him it was just a different set of rules. It didn't mean that he cowered behind me, scared to be a kid. We had lots of fun in a variety of places. He just knew that I always enforced the rules, and if I said, "you'll get a spanking if you do that again." I meant it and I did it immediately. As a result, after the first couple of times, I never had to spank him again. I'm not trying to say that I'm some kind of parenting genious. Just that it is possible to keep kids under tighter control than the average we see every day. That makes it a choice for the parents whether their kids are a pain, or get compliments. Sure there will be a few blow ups, but anyone can tell the difference between a grumpy breakdown and a perpetually out of control kid.

 

[Alamo_Beer]

Holly crap what did I start?

 

[Joker]

Holly crap what did I start?

 

[shunoshi]

From what started as a rant, this thread has turned out to be pretty interesting. This topic hits close to home with me since my wife and I are DINKs for life. We decided about 5-6 years ago that kids weren't for us. We're both 30 now and our thoughts on the matter haven't changed one bit (F you maternal/fraternal clock).

I have friends with and without kids. I've also lost many friends because of kids. I don't blame them. Between work, daily life, and kids, parents run out of time for friends and I know all too well where I sit on the priority list. I take those friends with a grain of salt, they made their choice, so life goes on. Some of my friends stuck around after kids, but outings with them are far and few between. It's usually more online contact than anything.

In the end there has to be compromise on both sides of the table for friendship to last, but that really applies to all relationships (with or without kids).

yeah, that bothers me. The childless are missing something....children who grow up and perpetuate the species and BTW, are usually there to provide comfort, love and help in one's old age. There are lots of "childless" people who will grow old and die alone.

If only I had a nickel for everytime that I heard that I was missing out. In the end it's a trade-off, just like everything else in life. I'm trading in children for freedom. As horrible as that sounds, it's the truth. My wife and I will continue to do what we want, when we want. Parents aren't allowed that luxury. We'll miss out on raising another human to hopefully excel and become successful in life as part of that trade. I guess I'll have to spoil the crap out of my nieces and nephews and live vicariously through my brothers and sister.

Are we going to grow old and die alone? Both of us will grow old, but only one of us will die alone. I'm crossing my fingers that it's me so my wife won't have to deal with that. But that's how it goes. Buy the ticket, take the ride!


....Whew.... /rant

 

[PeteOz77]

#1 is illegal (public drunkeness is illegal in nearly all locations) and irresponsible.

I didn't say sloppy drunk, I said had a few too many and the volume was too high.

The second situation is neither illegal or irresponsible and the child knocking over a cup is an accident. It's like getting in to a car accident. If you're drunk, you irresponsible, if you're not, it's just an accident (it happens)

Knocking over the cup is an accident in both instances, neither person intended to smash anything.

Also, how could you say age isn't a factor. One person is clearly responsible for his actions.

Very true, that's why it's the child's PARENTS that are at fault...and THEY should know better eh?

 

[PeteOz77]

Again, there are parents who don't discipline enough, but how many here had good parents and still acted out or screamed in an inappropriate place?

Any one who says "not me!" is mentally handicapped, just doesn't remember, and deserves our sympathy.

I see the point you are trying to make. It is irrelevant. Yes, I acted up when I was a Kid and inconvenienced other around me.. and it was WRONG and INCONSIDERATE when I DID IT TOO! I also got disciplined when it happened, and I soon learned not to do that in certain places. That is it entire gist of the converation we are all having here.

Parents need to do their best to try to keep their children from annoying the rest of the peopel around them in certain situations. It's fine to let kids be kids in nearly every place you take them.. but not EVERY place. Some places they need to be well behaved.

 

[Donasay]

In olden times children were deemed to be able to reason by about 7 or 8 and responsible for their own actions. It was assumed they knew right from wrong at that time. It was also about that age when they were first allowed to participate in religious rituals (communion etc.).

I wonder why in today's society parents are responsible for the actions of their older children and teenagers. Children and teens that clearly know right from wrong are given special treatment and a pass when they act out of line or do something that normally wouldn't be tolerated of someone over the legally sanctioned age of maturity, in the U.S. this is 18.

 

[shafferpilot]

AND it is now very confusing for teens because even though the law considers 18 to be the legal age of responsibility, that's not always true. The US is in a conundrum over this very issue. If a crime is severe, a "child" can be called an adult and charged as one. The inconsistency of this is a real problem in my eyes.

 

[PeteOz77]

In olden times children were deemed to be able to reason by about 7 or 8 and responsible for their own actions. It was assumed they knew right from wrong at that time. It was also about that age when they were first allowed to participate in religious rituals (communion etc.).

I wonder why in today's society parents are responsible for the actions of their older children and teenagers. Children and teens that clearly know right from wrong are given special treatment and a pass when they act out of line or do something that normally wouldn't be tolerated of someone over the legally sanctioned age of maturity, in the U.S. this is 18.

If I had to guess about the answer to this one, it would be all about litigation and lawsuits/payouts. if your 12 year old or even 17 1/2 year old decides to break all the windows out of the school, who is going to pay for them? Kids don't have money.. but their parents do!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

If any of my "friends" have a problem with the fact that I have a child to care for well, then they aren't really my "friends" are they. Personally, I would just stop hanging out with that set if I knew that everytime we got together it would involve a babysitter.

My children are people too. And it is MY resposibilty to show them that alcohol can be consumed responsibly rather than shunning them away. So, maybe these people aren't really your friends.

 

[Rick_R]

All kids, even the best of the best WILL throw a fit in a public place at least 15-17 times in their life.

Mine (and my wife's) didn't. They are now 23 and 18 years old, intelligent, creative, well behaved, hard working young adults.

Rick

 

[c.n.budz]

My children are people too. And it is MY resposibilty to show them that alcohol can be consumed responsibly rather than shunning them away. So, maybe these people aren't really your friends.

Nobody is questioning that. The main point of contention here is where is the line between letting kids be kids and observing the boundaries of common decency in public.

 

[RICLARK]

You know Im pretty Strict with my Son in Public and Try to teach him Manners, HE is still very young and when very young children throw fits there really isn't much you can do except Let it happen, I mean todays society dont want you to spank your child or wash there mouth out with soap if they say a bad word or make them stand in a corner...I mean everybody now days is a shrink and they all think they know whats best for your child and you never know if you reach down and swat your kid on the ass if someone is gonna have you locked up for it. I mean ****..Back when I was little it was nothen for the old man to blister my ass if I didn't Follow orders and if I acted out in public he had shyness about whoopin me in front of god and everybody, Todays society is whacked out and has no discipline.

 

[TexLaw]

when very young children throw fits there really isn't much you can do except Let it happen

That is just not true. You can get the child out of the public place.


TL

 

[Bobby_M]

Exactly. I think that's what most people are trying to say. The A-hole parents are the ones that just let their kids freak out, scream and run around in public when the general atmosphere in that public place not akin to that behavior. A carnival, maybe. A movie theater, absolutely not.

The reason why parents continue to be held accountable when teens act like complete morons is that they have NOT been instilled with proper behavior and I would even question whether they understand right from wrong in some cases.

No, I don't believe discepline equates to physical harm. I actually believe that hitting a child is a lazy attempt at discepline.

 

[RICLARK]

That is just not true. You can get the child out of the public place.


TL

Yes I understand you can get them out, But what im trying to say is with little little kids it is going to happen and it is going to be a scene until you get them out, The real young ones just dont understand, But im not trying to say you should sit there and let them have a outburst in front of everyone and cause a disturbance, Sorry i think I just mis spoke on my last post.

 

[TexLaw]

No problem, man. I certainly know that, short of Thorazine, you pretty much have to ride out a genuine, freaking out, tantrum. Fortunately, my older boy has quiet ones. My younger one just gives me a look kind of like Baby Stewie and kind of like "I can't wait until I can kick your ass, old man."


TL

 

[EdWort]

No, I don't believe discepline equates to physical harm. I actually believe that hitting a child is a lazy attempt at discepline.

My Dad thought differently. He had a paddle. We respected and feared the paddle and the desired behavior was achieved. People would come up to my parents in restaurants and compliment on how well behaved their 6 kids were. My two brothers & 3 sisters turned out just fine.

I believe a good swat on the bottom delivers the right message that the certain behavior is not tolerated. Kids learn fast and pretty soon just a stern look works just as well.

 

[shafferpilot]

Agreed, Ed. Not to start a whole new rant, but:

What happened that convinced people that spanking a child is unacceptable? It's been a staple of child rearing for... well, ever! But in the last two generations or so it has been largely abandoned and to an extent, criminalized.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm sure success has been had with physical discepline but I'm acheiving the same thing without it and hope that it continues. I was a good kid too and was only hit maybe twice in my whole life. The parents agree it was only when they let frustration get the better of them. In both cases, it's about being persistent, stern, and making the kid understand that they will not get away with pushing boundaries. It's all about negative consequences and there are so many available to a parent to inflict well before violence. You just have to try to think like a child.

There's a fine line between physical discepline and abuse. I think some people have trouble seeing the line and that's where it gets scary. When does it stop being a disceplinary measure and start being an outlet for the parent's anger and frustration? I don't know. I don't believe everything I see on TV, but the recent series of Nanny shows are pretty good examples of really bad parents with good intentions.

 

[shafferpilot]

I was spanked a lot as a kid. Words like, frustration, hit, and violence, just don't fit the bill for what I experienced. It was more like, dissapointment. The look on mom's face told me, "Darn it, Greg, why don't you stop when i use words? Why does it have to come down to this? For weeks you've been doing so good, but I can't let you get away with murder today. You've got to know there are unpleasant consequences, So come on and follow me to the staircase...."

Good for you BobbyM for finding ways to discipline by other means. Please know that this isn't aimed at you. I've seen acquaintences who use the "never spank a child" policy as an excuse for letting their kid be crazy.

 

[the_bird]

Spanking is lazy.

As was said, you've got to understand why the child is acting out. If they're tired, get them to nap. If they're hungry, get some food in their belly. If they're just testing boundaries, timeouts. Natural consequences; if they throw their toys, their toys go away. They don't pick up? If Daddy has to, the toys go in a trash bag in the basement for a couple days.

There's also understanding your kids so that you know what situations not to put them in. We go to dinner early, before Cassie gets too tired. We go to restaurants with natural distractions; big fish tanks at the Asian place, lots of brew gear and stuff to look at in the pub. She starts getting restless, we'll go for a walk to look at flowers or cars in the parking lot or whatever.

Hitting is lazy. Hitting is not understanding what's driving your child's behavior and taking actions to correct it.

 

[shafferpilot]

What about when an 8 year old calls his mom a b!tch because she won't get him a candy bar at the grocery store? Seriously, I'm not trying to be a pain, I'm really just trying to get a handle on how a non-spanker deals with some of the REALLY frustrating situations that I know parents often face.

 

[the_bird]

Why a spanking? Why not a grounding? Why not losing all TV for a week? Not being allowed to have their friends over?

What's most important to that child? Avoiding being hit, or is there something else that's going to hurt them just as bad (but not physically)?

You're right - there needs to be consequences, but why must they be physical?

 

[c.n.budz]

I rarely got spanked as a kid and to be honest, back then I preferred the 10 seconds of pain to being grounded or losing toys and TV for an extended period of time. A punishment or consequence that works is one that the kid has to deal with for awhile

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Nobody is questioning that. The main point of contention here is where is the line between letting kids be kids and observing the boundaries of common decency in public.

My response is to the OP, of which made no mention to a child behaviour in a public setting. The OP quite blatently complains about kids being present regardless of said childs actions. The OP complains that parent A has to get up to go change the childs diaper. That is just selfish and childish in it's own way. Any one like that is not welcome in my circle.

 

[Bobby_M]

I like this thread in that we covered a lot of parenting challenges. I remember the few times my parents employed physical attitude corrections. I remember feeling great about it because I knew that they'd feel remorse over it and eventually over compensate.

A kid calls mom a *****? Did that really happen? I have to wonder if that kid was adequately disciplined in general prior to that. The idea is to have them know what really sh!tty behavior is before it happens and know that it can only result in a really stiff punishment. Sure, they'll get mad and throw a zinger out there. I don't think there's anything you can do physically at that moment to make up for the disappointment you'd feel as a parent. I don't believe it would be a sufficient deterent either. Pain is temporary. I agree, and have said before that there are so many things they care about that you can take away. No playstation for a week is so much worse than a smack. I think many parents won't follow through with those kind of punishments because it's a lot of work. The kid will beg to have them let it slide every day. Persistence is a PITA.

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

I'm sure success has been had with physical discepline but I'm acheiving the same thing without it and hope that it continues. I was a good kid too and was only hit maybe twice in my whole life.

I've hit my daughter twice, both times she "got up" from her current discipline - "time out".


I feel now, when I was hit, I deserved it. I remember one time, my dad was chasing me cause he was pissed and I turned around and blasted him right in the nuts... I'd have beat my ass, too!

 

[RICLARK]

My old man was as strict as it comes, he never "beat" me but I did get my fair share of ass whoopins, I remember in elementary school I had problems behaving so my parents had the teacher draw a head on a piece of paper with either a smiley a Straight line or a frown, if I got the Straight line I got no TV for a week if I got the frown it was a meeting with a very thick leather belt that my dad had for about 4 decades so it was nice and broke in, I dont resent my dad for any of it now... I realized as I got older what a Pain in the ass I was and I understand that All he wanted was for me to pay attention and get a good education but to this day I swear that woman had it in for me.

 

[shafferpilot]

Thanks for the discussion, everyone. I don't have any kids of my own yet, but it's comin soon. I've got a lot to think about, now, that probably wouldn't have occured to me until it was time to act. I really think I'm gonna be a little better prepared.

 

[Bobby_M]

I've hit my daughter twice, both times she "got up" from her current discipline - "time out".


I feel now, when I was hit, I deserved it. I remember one time, my dad was chasing me cause he was pissed and I turned around and blasted him right in the nuts... I'd have beat my ass, too!

The problem with hitting, and a point I don't think was mentioned yet, is that kids learn by example. When you reach that threshold where smacking them is the last resort, you're showing them that it's a reasonable way to deal with anger.

Kids will try to run out of the time out spot, they'll cry and throw themselves on the floor and try to gain sympathy. You've got to increase the punishment as they continue to act out, but again, jumping right to hitting is extreme.

I'm all for strict. We don't let my 3yo daughter get away with anything. It's frustrating and tiring as hell.

 

[sirsloop]

heh heh... just wait till you have the two of them egging each other on You'll NEED homebrew then!! HAHAH!

 

[Yooper]

I believe my daughter (now 18) was spanked once, when she was about 4. She was mad about going to bed and called her father "a flat faced butt sniffer". He gave her a smack on the butt. She laughs about it now, but realized even at that she had just overstepped the bounds. I think I spanked my son on the butt only once, when we were in a busy parking lot and he took off running. He was about two. I caught him and gave him a swat on the butt. I was so scared about his safety! When he wakes up, I'll ask him if he ever got another spanking. I don't think so.

My kids are well adjusted people who don't use drugs, or drink, and they are of good character. They have always behaved well at home and in public. Raising them to be this way was the absolutely hardest thing I have ever done, or can imagine doing. It takes vast amounts of time and energy to raise children with love and discipline. It really would be much easier to let them run wild and not have to deal with all the issues that we face as parents. I think that's why we see the mom in the grocery store begging her little demon to behave. They've given the control to the child.

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

Man, you got that right Bobby_M(learn by example). My daughter puts the kitten in time out in exactly the fashion that I do to her. She sits him down, gets real close to him (in his face) explains exactly what he did wrong and explains that he is in time out for doing that. Its kind of funny to watch.

So far, the 2 smacks in the ass have not been copycatted, and I dont think they will be. Both times she was pretty young and now she just seems to have an understanding about not getting up from time-out.

 

[Flyin' Lion]

I don't believe everything I see on TV, but the recent series of Nanny shows are pretty good examples of really bad parents with good intentions.

I'm glad you mentioned this. I occasionally watch Supernanny with SWMBO because I'm interested in discipline without physical punishment. I'm fully invested in raising my daughter without spanking, but still disciplining her so she knows how to behave properly. I even started going to anger management so I don't bring her up in the same type of environment I was raised in.

I also think the Jo is hot (its gotta be the accent). I make say Jo-isms like "that's unasseptable."

 

[Donasay]

Ah supernanny and her english taxi to the rescue. Have you guys seen the south park where cartman reduces her to eating her own excrement.

 

[Homercidal]

I could count the number of times I've spanked my kids on one hand. It's been used to great effect at the right time. I also don't count to 5 to get them to do what they were told. If I know they heard me, I start at 3 and count backwards, if I count at all, and I'm already moving towards them. That usually has to happen two, maybe three times before they know there is not time to ignore me.

You should have seen the look on my friends' kids when I did this to my kids once. They were more scared than my kids! My sister doesn't do this, and that is why it takes 1/2 hour for her to get her kids to put their shoes on to go home.

 

[Hopleaf]

I got spanked a lot as a kid, I turned out fine. I won't ever spank my child though, unless it's a swat when they do something life threatening, like run into traffic. If that happens, they're getting some good ol' fashioned behavioral conditioning.

 

[Dr Vorlauf]

I got spanked a lot as a kid, I turned out fine. I won't ever spank my child though, unless it's a swat when they do something life threatening, like run into traffic. If that happens, they're getting some good ol' fashioned behavioral conditioning.

+1 on this. This is where I draw the limit. No time outs our go to your room when you put yourself or others in physical harms way...