Two mashes or reiterated mash?

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Brewshna

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Hi guys, we've got a brew day planned for Saturday and I'm unsure how to go about this.
First here's the recipe: Brewfather
Because of the large grain bill we have have to split it in two.
So either we mash half in apr. half the water, mash out and store. Then mash second half and ad stored Wort afterwards.
Or
We do a reiterated mash, but I have fear of losing loads of sugar out of the first load.
Any ideas on this?

Thanks
Matt
 

3 Dawg Night

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Interesting. I had to look up "reiterated mash," as it's not a term I had come across.

Why would you lose sugar from the initial mash? The way I read it, you mash and sparge as usual, but your second mash uses the wort from the first mash as your hot liquor for the second mash, then you sparge the second mash as well. Wouldn't you get the same rinsing of the sugars from the grain either way?
 
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Brewshna

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I'm thinking the first Wort will be running through the second grist, as I have a all in one system, and I fear some of the sugars will soak into the grain and be lost. Making two wortdls and then combining them for the boil seems fool proof. But hmmm?
 
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Nothing to fear, just a couple of efficiency vs time trade-offs to make.

With the re-iterative mash approach, there will be a noticeable amount of sugars left in the spent grains.

One could extract most of the sugars - but that will result in a longer boil to reach the target OG.

One could make a 2nd (OG 40-ish?) beer with the spent grains, at the cost of a second boil. With sufficient equipement equipment, the smaller beer could be done (somewhat) concurrently with the larger beer.

Another option would be to adjust the batch size to fit the equipment.
 
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Brewshna

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As I said, just mash twice with full strength. Store the first mash while the second is mashing in, pour the first back in and boil as normal. Will just take ages. I guess +2h to the brewday. We will decide today what road to take.
I've done a reiterated mash before, but something didn't go quite right.
I've seen info to mash out the first load and not to. Maybe this time I won't mash out.
Plan is first Wort at 66C, after 60min up to 71C. Mash in second load and rest at 68C for more body. Then 77C and on the boil.

Has anyone looked at the recipe? I put it together with some leftover grain we have.
I hope this will work
 

madscientist451

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Because of the large grain bill we have have to split it in two.
So either we mash half in apr. half the water, mash out and store. Then mash second half and ad stored Wort afterwards.
Or
We do a reiterated mash, but I have fear of losing loads of sugar out of the first load.
Any ideas on this?
That's a pretty complicated grain bill and I've never heard of using cocoa nibs in the mash, but I guess its been done for a while.
As already mentioned, you have more than the 2 options listed above.
Since the grain bill appears overly busy (IMO) perhaps it would make sense to just brew 1/2 a batch, see how it comes out and then make some adjustments for the next batch.
 
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Brewshna

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I've been reading about the use of chocolate in beers and I want a chocolate monster. So I'm giving the triple choc a go. The grain bill is a good question. What would you leave out? (the double choc malt is to try and simulate the correct FG, as it's only 80ish% fermentable)
 

madscientist451

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I wouldn't leave anything out, brew it as it is and see if you like it. I'll go out on a limb an predict the taste is going to be more roasty than chocolate. But again, the recipe is worth trying a small batch and seeing what happens.
Many pro brewers use Cholaca for rich chocolate taste:
 
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Will just take ages. I guess +2h to the brewday. We will decide today what road to take.
You could revise the size of the batch to match the equipment. This would result in a shorter the brew day (but less beer).

You could also do some late boil additions along with some "top up" water to get a larger batch in the fermentation vessel.

Has anyone looked at the recipe? I put it together with some leftover grain we have.
Does BrewFather have an option for displaying recipes in a more traditional format?

eta - commenting to posters in general: badly formatting recipes (which for me includes centering of text) makes it harder to understand the recipe. If posters are willing to take the time to provide complete, well formatted recipe, I often can make time to review.
 
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What do you mean by more traditional?
Left justification of text, ingredient details in a grid rather than separated by dashes.

eta: note that there are people who are willing to read recipes formatted this way. I make the comment (my opinion of BrewFather's recipe layout) mostly in passing, as you were asking a second time if anyone had looked at the recipe.
 
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hottpeper13

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i have a high gravity procedure I use for either an 11 gal batch of super high gravity 1.134 and a 6 gal of 1.040- 1.050 depending on the mash cap. It uses 4- 15 gal vessels with 2 being boil kettles.
first mash is done as any mash ( needs a mash out) with first runnings into #1 BK
Sparge with enough liquor to mash in the second grain bill. and run off into BK #2.
Heat BK # 2 to strike temp and mash in second batch.
Run off into BK #1 ( enough for 11 gal post boil) and boil as recipe indicates 100% first runnings.
Sparge second mash into the now empty BK #2 cap or steep grains or leave as is for mixing.
Boil # 2.
You now end up with 11 gal of 1.134 or so and 6 gal of small beer or you can mix them evenly for a wort of around 1.100-1.112
Regardless of this way or reiterated mash if you don't do a second sparge you are going to leave sugar behind.

One thing I can't stress enough is having a pump makes this way easier but the time it takes is the time it takes.

I sometimes do an overnite mash for the first one so the day isn't so long,just depends on the recipe.

This is how I can fill a 15 gal barrel with RIS
 

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Has anyone looked at the recipe?
I would leave all the cocoa powder and chocolate nibs for after fermentation. If you soak them in Vodka for a week beforehand, it will become a paste, but may integrate into your beer faster and more completely. Or use Cholaca as @madscientist451 said, and again, after fermentation.

Why that much salt (NaCl), 174 ppm Na+?

I would mash a little lower, (65-66C), you want maximum attenuation on big beers, there's always plenty of body left.

How are you planning for wort oxygenation?
 
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Brewshna

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The high NaCl is on purpose, want a tiny hint of salt. I'm mashing half at 66 and half at 68C, a bit of a both worlds. Don't have any Chocola, 150g of nibs are going into vodka for post. Want to try the mashed nibs and powder (de oiled or so).
Oxygenate by vigorous overhead shaking. We're using rehydrated dry yeast, should be alright with 10%ABV....I hope.
I've taken out the black malt and upped biscuit and pilsner a bit, wish I had light chocolate malt, that sounds great.
 

IslandLizard

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Oxygenate by vigorous overhead shaking.
What kind of fermenter is that? Hope it's not glass...

We're using rehydrated dry yeast, should be alright with 10%ABV....I hope.
You recipe indicates a higher %ABV: Imperial Stout - 11.6%

Both US-05 and Verdant are good for 12%, but success at that high of a gravity/%ABV depends on many factors.
I would oxygenate twice, at pitching and 12-18 hours later, before active fermentation has started.

Will you be controlling ferm temps closely such as in a temp controlled "ferm chamber?"
 
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Brewshna

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A 30l speidel Plastik fermenter, no imminent
danger of death.
Changed the recipe and that disappeared for some reason. It's 10.1%, well that's the plan.
Don't have a chamber, a dark room with a constant 18C,so during active fermentation we should have 20-21C in der fermenter. Shaking twice sounds like good advice, thanks.
 

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dark room with a constant 18C,so during active fermentation we should have 20-21C in der fermenter.
Once the yeast gets going it may go too fast. Maybe put the fermenter in a tub with (cold) water? A (large) water jacket helps keeping temps in your fermenter more constant and it draws off heat faster, more efficiently than air. You can add one or more frozen water bottles to the jacket every 12-24 hours to keep the temps down.
I often do fermentations in a lower level bathroom using a large Igloo cooler with water, for the same reason. Fits two 6.5 gallon buckets side by side.
 

TestTickle

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I wouldn't leave anything out, brew it as it is and see if you like it. I'll go out on a limb an predict the taste is going to be more roasty than chocolate. But again, the recipe is worth trying a small batch and seeing what happens.
Many pro brewers use Cholaca for rich chocolate taste:
+1 for Cholaca, that's good stuff. If you want to do a poor man's version of it, you can emulsify your own raw cacao powder to get very similar results.
 
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Brewshna

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Poor man sounds like good. Wonder if I can get cholaca in Germany.
Ihre really need to try light chocolate malt next time. Just been reading that's the choc flavour wonder malt.
 

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I do a lot of recipes like this and I reiterate. First mash is almost always 100% base, I save all the specialty grains and additives for the second. After the first mash is sparged, I heat up a second batch of sparge water and measure the right volume of runnings to do the second mash. It's important to have a decent concentration of bicarbonate to buffer for the second mash or the the runnings may be too acidic.
 

jerrylotto

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I thought of that too, but that means no mash out after first round.
You can mash out the first half with no problems. In fact, I step mash each half - the denatured enzymes in the wort have no negative impact on the second half mash. In fact, after I mash out the first batch, I collect first runnings and set them aside - using mostly the latter stages of sparge runnings in lieu of water for mashing the second half. There is usually plenty of extra base in that other half of grain to provide protease, peptase, glutease, and amylase galore the second time around.
 

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There’s something to be said for supplementing a mash with extract. I have an Anvil Foundry 6.5 which has an 8 lb grain capacity. I normally brew 3 gallon batches and I bought it with that in mind. Every once in a while I want to brew 5 gallons of a known good recipe that I’ve done before or a stronger 3 gallon batch. I make my recipe for the full 8 lbs and whatever gravity that achieves and then add extract in the brew pot to get up to the gravity I want. Costs a little more but saves a second 6 hour brew session.
 
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Brewshna

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I just didn't want to use the extract, want to manage all grain. And so far I have did, which I'm really happy about
 
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Brewshna

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Shook the **** out of it. Fermentation started nicely, first bubbles after a few hours
 
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Brewshna

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I do a lot of recipes like this and I reiterate. First mash is almost always 100% base, I save all the specialty grains and additives for the second. After the first mash is sparged, I heat up a second batch of sparge water and measure the right volume of runnings to do the second mash. It's important to have a decent concentration of bicarbonate to buffer for the second mash or the the runnings may be too acidic.
So you set PH on first mash to be right and then have to buffer on the second round because of the dark malts?
 
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Brewshna

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I mixed base malts just because I didn't have more pale. Normally I'd only use pale malt for a stout. Marris otter even, if I could get it easily
 
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