Quantcast

Trying to clone a rye beer

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
I had a beer at the Lucky Labrador brew pub in Portland, Oregon yesterday. It was named "quality rye." I found it quite tasty and hence want to try and make my own. There is some published information on the Lucky Labrador rye beer. Thirty UBUs, utilizes Golding and Fuggles hops, 23% rye malt, the rest being regular two row malt and a little bit of crystal malt (L value not specified), and 5% ABV.

After chatting with the owner of my local homebrew shop and poking around the Internet a little I came up with this. I've never designed a recipe before and basically don't know what I'm doing. So I figured I would run this by the more experienced hands to get their thoughts. I doubt I can perfectly clone the beer without a great deal more experience. But maybe I can make a rye beer that is decent.

Please note: This is for a one gallon batch, as that is what I brew. Hence the small amounts.

Recipe:

2 pounds, 5 ounces (1.05 kg) Two row malt (in this case, Great Western)
10.6 ounces (300 grams) Rye malt
1.6 ounces (45.36 grams) Crystal malt L15
4.75 grams East Kent Goldings hops added at the start of the boil
4.75 grams of Fuggles hops added at the start of the boil
2.00 grams East Kent Goldings added 10 minutes before the end of the boil.
2.00 gram Fuggles hops added 10 minutes before the end of the boil
About a third of a package of Fermentis SafBrew T-58 yeast

Beersmith estimates 30.0 IBUs, 5.1% alcohol, 5.6 SRM color, and original gravity of 1.052. I am going to batch sparge, probably. It is within the style guidelines for an American wheat or rye beer.

I didn't notice a lot of hop flavors in the beer but it wasn't hideously bitter either. So I am totally guessing on the timing of hop additions.

Thanks!
 

dmtaylor

Lord Idiot the Lazy
HBT Supporter
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
4,130
Reaction score
2,253
Location
Two Rivers, WI
Recipe looks great to me. Just need to know your efficiency. For a standard efficiency of about 75%, you should really need only about 1 pound, 14 ounces of Great Western 2-row pale malt with 10.0 ounces rye malt. Otherwise your OG will be way too high around 1.063 (more than 10 points too high), unless your efficiency is super low like 62% then the original grist is fine. But other than that, looks great. The 15L crystal malt looks like a great choice. IBUs and hop flavors should be about perfect. Nice job on your first recipe. Hope you like it. In any case, even if it's not a clone, it should be a very very good beer. Cheers! :)
 

madscientist451

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 10, 2014
Messages
4,358
Reaction score
2,043
Location
Bedford
Why the T-58 yeast, you think they're using that? Also I'd just throw the whole pack in and save the slurry from the fermenter for your next brew.
The brewery website says it finishes dry and crisp so I think a low mash temp of 149-150 may be appropriate.
For tweaking the next attempt you could change it up and go 50-50 rye malt and flaked rye or all flaked rye, or leave out the C-15. I'd avoid changing more than one thing at a time though. Good luck, please post the results.
:mug:
 

mongoose33

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
7,971
Reaction score
7,363
Location
Platteville, WI
I do a rye ale with these ingredients for a 5-gallon batch:

9# Maris Otter
3# Rye Malt
6 oz Chocolate Wheat
4 oz Flaked Rye
1 scoop Rice Hulls

.5 oz Columbus 60 minutes
.5 oz Columbus 20 minutes
1 oz Styrian Celeia 10 minutes

Wyeast 2112 with a starter
Mash at 149

Preboil Gravity 1.055
Postboil Gravity (OG) 1.063
Final Gravity 1.013

Ferment at 63 degrees, raise to 71 toward end of fermentation for a couple days.

*******
Your East Kent Goldings and Fuggles should produce a similar kind of hop profile as my Styrian Celeia does.

You should consider getting some rice hulls and adding some of those to the mix; rye malt has no hulls and you risk a stuck mash if you don't.

My recipe is dialed in for BIAB, no sparge, so yours is probably similar in terms of total gravity.

I'm not sure what the Crystal will do in your beer at that low a level; I'd probably go to 3 ounces.

I use the Chocolate Wheat to help with head retention, and it also turns the beer a delicious dark color. Rye bread is always a darker bread, it seemed to me that a Rye beer should be darker, too. :)

Mine has a very distinct rye flavor, and if you like Rye, you'd like it. I found a commercial example that was very close, it's from Metropolitan Brewing in Chicago called "Arc Welder." On their website they note they have 28 percent rye malt in their recipe. Yours is about 24% Rye, very close to the percentage in mine.


So--yours will turn out, and be good. Pic of my "Funky Rye" beer:

ryebeer.jpg
 
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
Recipe looks great to me. Just need to know your efficiency. For a standard efficiency of about 75%, you should really need only about 1 pound, 14 ounces of Great Western 2-row pale malt with 10.0 ounces rye malt. Otherwise your OG will be way too high around 1.063 (more than 10 points too high), unless your efficiency is super low like 62% then the original grist is fine. But other than that, looks great. The 15L crystal malt looks like a great choice. IBUs and hop flavors should be about perfect. Nice job on your first recipe. Hope you like it. In any case, even if it's not a clone, it should be a very very good beer. Cheers! :)
My efficiency is pretty terrible. About 60%, possibly lower. I am an absolute beginner and I'm using normal kitchen tools. My sparge setup is a plastic colander. My mash tun is a 6 quart cooler and I have a devil of a time keeping the temperature up. I think because I am using such a small volume it loses heat quickly. I shoot for a starting mash temp of around 150 F and after twenty minutes or so it's down to 120 F. One gallon batches do have their disadvantages.

Beersmith predicts 5.1% ABV. If the pre-boil OG turns out too strong I may dilute it with distilled water or simply boil for less time. I tend to have issues with too much boil off. I started with less grain and added until it I hit 5% ABV.

I was thinking I might use a normal American ale yeast instead. The guy who owns the brew shop (he's a great guy) knew of the Lucky Labrador and said when he knew them, years ago, they were just using American ale yeast for everything. So I might use SafAle US-05, which I have on hand.
 
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
Why the T-58 yeast, you think they're using that? Also I'd just throw the whole pack in and save the slurry from the fermenter for your next brew.
The brewery website says it finishes dry and crisp so I think a low mash temp of 149-150 may be appropriate.
For tweaking the next attempt you could change it up and go 50-50 rye malt and flaked rye or all flaked rye, or leave out the C-15. I'd avoid changing more than one thing at a time though. Good luck, please post the results.
:mug:
What difference would I see between flaked rye and rye malt? I assume the flaked rye has no diastatic power but would contribute flavor? I have flaked rye on hand so that's totally doable.

It wasn't a super complex beer (at least to my very untrained palate) but it had spicy/rye bready component I liked. Not spicy as in chili peppers or even black pepper spicy. I'd never had a rye beer before and frankly didn't expect to like it. But I did like it.

I am concerned about getting the hops right. I am totally guessing as to the timing of the hop additions. It wasn't hyper bitter so I'm assuming some of the hops were put in later. But they may have all been tossed in at the beginning of the boil.

I went with the T-58 yeast because the brew shop owner said that if I really wanted to punch up the rye character that yeast would do it more effectively than a regular American yeast. I am concerned about the rye spiciness being lost. This concern is partly influenced by an experiment Brulosophy did where they put in some rye and they couldn't really taste the rye "spiciness". I didn't expect to taste it in the rye beer I had but it was definitely there. I was pleasantly surprised.
 
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
I do a rye ale with these ingredients for a 5-gallon batch:

Mine has a very distinct rye flavor, and if you like Rye, you'd like it. I found a commercial example that was very close, it's from Metropolitan Brewing in Chicago called "Arc Welder." On their website they note they have 28 percent rye malt in their recipe. Yours is about 24% Rye, very close to the percentage in mine.


So--yours will turn out, and be good. Pic of my "Funky Rye" beer:

View attachment 663590
I will punch this into Beersmith at once. Thank you.
 

mongoose33

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
7,971
Reaction score
7,363
Location
Platteville, WI
Are you wrapping your mash tun in a blanket or similar to insulate it?

When I use a cooler mash tun, I always preheat it with some boiling water so that when I dump in the strike water I'm not losing temperature to heating up the tun. Same thing with the grain.

In the recipe I posted above, the 2112 yeast is liquid California Lager yeast. The White Labs WLP810 version is called San Francisco lager yeast. They're for making California Common beer, but as you can see....they can be used for other things.

Mangrove Jack M54 is a dry version of this yeast.
 

mongoose33

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
7,971
Reaction score
7,363
Location
Platteville, WI
What difference would I see between flaked rye and rye malt? I assume the flaked rye has no diastatic power but would contribute flavor? I have flaked rye on hand so that's totally doable.

It wasn't a super complex beer (at least to my very untrained palate) but it had spicy/rye bready component I liked. Not spicy as in chili peppers or even black pepper spicy. I'd never had a rye beer before and frankly didn't expect to like it. But I did like it.

I am concerned about getting the hops right. I am totally guessing as to the timing of the hop additions. It wasn't hyper bitter so I'm assuming some of the hops were put in later. But they may have all been tossed in at the beginning of the boil.

I went with the T-58 yeast because the brew shop owner said that if I really wanted to punch up the rye character that yeast would do it more effectively than a regular American yeast. I am concerned about the rye spiciness being lost. This concern is partly influenced by an experiment Brulosophy did where they put in some rye and they couldn't really taste the rye "spiciness". I didn't expect to taste it in the rye beer I had but it was definitely there. I was pleasantly surprised.
If you like the way the beer tastes, then you're there. I wouldn't be tweaking it very much if you are happy with it. When I produce a "hit" I don't do much to it; it becomes a "house" beer. I've done that with Funky Rye, my California Common, a Kolsch I brew, a Dark Lager, couple of other beers. They're *there*.

I'm working on a pale ale recipe right now that I'm tweaking. The beer is good, I'd have another. But it's not quite delivering what I want. I have a target in mind and it's the hops I'm mostly tweaking. Tried a couple new hops in dry hopping (cashmere and Idaho 7) but neither did much for me. It's a good beer, but it's not a great beer. So I'll do some tweaking to the dry hops the next time.

********

The flaked rye has no diastatic power but there is starch in it. I include it for flavor. It's weird stuff, so make sure it's getting ground up at least a bit when you crush. Mix in with the other grain.

********

Sometimes people add Rye to an IPA, then it's a Rye-P-A. I can't ever taste the rye in them. It was lost on me why, in a beer that features a hop profile (which is what you get in an IPA) that you'd add Rye and let it be masked by the hops.

That's one reason I like your recipe--you're featuring the rye rather than covering it up with hops and such.
 
Last edited:
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
I'm going to wrap the cooler in a blanket and use the boiling water pre-heat treatment this time. It can't hurt to try. I may even try a quick and dirty version of decoction where I take out a portion, bring it to boiling, and add it back into the mash.

I don't know enough about hops to try and create an IPA recipe. I like IPAs but I would need to study more.
 

mongoose33

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
7,971
Reaction score
7,363
Location
Platteville, WI
I will punch this into Beersmith at once. Thank you.
There's a funny aspect to all this.

I have Beersmith. Newest version, too. I never use it.

Some of that is just experience. It's weird because I'm trained as a scientist, measurement and analysis are my thing. Precision, accuracy, prediction--nobody, but nobody on HBT is more interested in that kind of thing than I am.

And yet....somewhere along the way my brewing became less of a science and more of an art. When I'm tasting a beer like my pale ale I'm tweaking, I'm thinking about it, what I wish it had that it doesn't, and how I might get more of that. Then I let my intuition tell me, for the most part, what to do.

I couldn't tell you the SRMs of any of my beers. Nor the IBUs. I know around what they are, but the exact number? No idea.

Gravity I know, and ABV is trivial to calculate, but for the most part, I'm just winging it, depending on my intuition and experience to tell me what to do.

*****

And that is SO weird, given how analytical I am in so many other areas. But it has worked for me, and I've found my intuition about this stuff is pretty decent.

Now, where does intuition come from? Hidden subconscious knowledge that ultimate traces back to knowing what this does, or that does.

So, let me suggest two things: be less focused on the numbers you're getting and more focused on how the beer tastes. Don't say "I need more IBUs"; say "I would like the beer to be a little more bitter." Then think on how you might do that (add another half ounce of bittering hops at 60 minutes, say).

Suggestion two: continue to have fun with it, however you find yourself doing that. You'll find your own style, your own way of doing things, and all of the above are merely suggestions about things you might consider. But if you're not having fun, you're not doing it right! :)

Good luck and have fun!
 
Last edited:

mongoose33

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
7,971
Reaction score
7,363
Location
Platteville, WI
I'm going to wrap the cooler in a blanket and use the boiling water pre-heat treatment this time. It can't hurt to try. I may even try a quick and dirty version of decoction where I take out a portion, bring it to boiling, and add it back into the mash.

I don't know enough about hops to try and create an IPA recipe. I like IPAs but I would need to study more.
Here's my opinion on how new brewers should proceed:

They should take an established known good recipe, and brew it. They need to learn the process so that they get things down. Things like maintaining mash temp, for instance. Process is more important than recipe in that if you have a good process, any decent recipe will turn out.

But no recipe can save a bad process. Newbies sometimes jump into recipe development before they've demonstrated to themselves that they can brew good beer. Then when the new recipes don't turn out, they can't tell if the recipe is to blame, or their still-developing processes. No way to separate them.

So I always suggest new brewers brew an established but relatively simple recipe so they can learn to get the process down. Process trumps recipe, always.

****

And as far as IPAs go, your first try at an IPA should, in my opinion, be an established recipe others have indicated is good. Don't be making stuff up with a new beer style whose processes you've never demonstrated to yourself that you can do.

There are thousands of IPA recipes out there, including here on HBT. Start a thread and ask for a good, but simple, IPA recipe, then focus on figuring out how to do that.

*****

This is somewhat about the intuition thing I spoke of above: intuition comes from experience. That means, over time, as I change this, or that, and observe the results, I'm adding information. I take pretty decent notes on the process, so I have a record of how things work.

That becomes embedded in my subconscious, which is where that intuition is coming from. BUT--if you don't show you can reproduce anything, or have too many variables constantly changing, you won't get there.

IMO, one of the best things new brewers can do is ask themselves where they want to be in six months or a year--not today. Keep getting better and doing continuous quality improvement, and you'll get there.

But if you keep changing things, the learning curve will be longer and more painful.

My 2 cents. Mongoose out.
 

SanPancho

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
2,355
Reaction score
659
Location
SF
the beer sounds like a rye lager. Granted the crystal is out of place, but it makes sense. I would not use t58. The esters will cover the rye. Id use 34/70 (totally fine at 65f) personally, or us05 or other clean yeast if you just want an ale.

Rye in malted or flaked doesn’t really show itself. Not at 23%. We do 30% total. But even that isn’t enough on its own. Getting rye to pop you wanna either mash a bit high to get a bit of the sweetness of the grain in there. Or we use a good portion of crystal rye. To me thats where the rye character comes from, a bit of spice with some caramel. It can be a bit hard to find tho. If this brew isn’t enough rye for you, use crystal rye next time instead of the 15.
 

mongoose33

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
7,971
Reaction score
7,363
Location
Platteville, WI
BTW, as far as notes go....many keep them in Beersmith. My son does, e.g.

But I tried that a couple times, reverted to keeping them in a notebook. This is the kind of recording of information that feeds my subconscious, my intuition. In the pic below i have everything from ambient temp to what the composition of the strike water is to the amendments made to that water to mash temps, hopping schedule, and so on.

Some people make forms on which they record this info. I just....do this.

notebook.jpg
 

dmtaylor

Lord Idiot the Lazy
HBT Supporter
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
4,130
Reaction score
2,253
Location
Two Rivers, WI
My efficiency is pretty terrible. About 60%, possibly lower. I am an absolute beginner and I'm using normal kitchen tools. My sparge setup is a plastic colander. My mash tun is a 6 quart cooler and I have a devil of a time keeping the temperature up. I think because I am using such a small volume it loses heat quickly. I shoot for a starting mash temp of around 150 F and after twenty minutes or so it's down to 120 F. One gallon batches do have their disadvantages.

Beersmith predicts 5.1% ABV. If the pre-boil OG turns out too strong I may dilute it with distilled water or simply boil for less time. I tend to have issues with too much boil off. I started with less grain and added until it I hit 5% ABV.

I was thinking I might use a normal American ale yeast instead. The guy who owns the brew shop (he's a great guy) knew of the Lucky Labrador and said when he knew them, years ago, they were just using American ale yeast for everything. So I might use SafAle US-05, which I have on hand.
Ah, okay, so efficiency really is down about 60%. But if you change over to US-05 yeast, then I still say you should go with a smaller grist because US-05 will attenuate more than 80% rather than the 70-75% attenuation you would get from T-58. YMMV.

You can also improve your efficiency and your boiloff problem (too much you say) by sparging more. Kill two birds with one stone.

What difference would I see between flaked rye and rye malt? I assume the flaked rye has no diastatic power but would contribute flavor? I have flaked rye on hand so that's totally doable.

I am concerned about getting the hops right. I am totally guessing as to the timing of the hop additions. It wasn't hyper bitter so I'm assuming some of the hops were put in later. But they may have all been tossed in at the beginning of the boil.

I went with the T-58 yeast because the brew shop owner said that if I really wanted to punch up the rye character that yeast would do it more effectively than a regular American yeast. I am concerned about the rye spiciness being lost. This concern is partly influenced by an experiment Brulosophy did where they put in some rye and they couldn't really taste the rye "spiciness". I didn't expect to taste it in the rye beer I had but it was definitely there. I was pleasantly surprised.
Not much difference between rye malt vs. flaked rye. I would use either one interchangeably.

I would not adjust the hop additions, they look good to me.

T-58 would indeed make it more spicy. Rye itself is actually NOT spicy at all in my experience, I have used up to 40% and it just is not spicy. More earthy than anything.
 
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
All sound advice. Thank you. This rye beer I will attempt is my first try at designing a recipe. And really it's just trying to copy someone else.

So far everything I have done has been recipes. I've pulled them from The Complete Joy of Homebrewing, How to Brew, and Brewing Classic Styles. I think you are right in that getting the process down is more important.

I actually don't care that much about the efficiency as I do about repeatability. But I just made an American light lager for a friend (it's what he wanted) and tossed it in the fermenter. I took gravity readings pre boil and post boil as well as took note of the amount of water used and what I ended up with. I think the efficiency was much higher than I had estimated because I an original gravity reading of 1.062 or so. For a one gallon batch. The recipe said the OG should be 1.038. My friend will probably find it too alcoholic, depending on final gravity.

Pre-heating the cooler and wrapping it in a blanket made it hold temperature better. More than I expected.

If the rye doesn't give it the spicy character then what would have given the beer I had that lovely spicy/zingy character? The hops? The crystal malt? Did they dump in some kind of spice and just not tell anyone?

I listened to the Brulosophy podcast where they did tests with rye and even with substantial amounts of rye they couldn't discern much flavor impact from it either. I wonder if the brewers at the Lucky Labrador would just give me their recipe.... I kind of doubt it.

This does make me curious to try other rye beers and see how they taste. I imagine there's just as much variety in rye beer as any other style.

I'll look into picking up some rye crystal malt. It can't hurt and I won't need very much.
 

z-bob

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Oct 2, 2014
Messages
3,237
Reaction score
1,037
Location
Rochester, MN
Do you have a 6 or 8 quart stockpot? Try mashing in that, and put it in a warm oven to hold the temperature.

I've brewed a few rye beers, using various amounts of rye flour, flaked rye, and crystal rye. They've all been good beers but the rye didn't contribute much character -- I'm not sure I've ever gone much over 20% rye, though.
 

Coastalbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
431
Reaction score
139
I have a rye brown ale recipe that I really enjoy brewing. To me the rye malt ads a rich creamy mouth feel and am earthy flavor, not spicy at all to my palate. I brewed a batch of my brown ale recipe before Christmas and wanted to try to get some of that traditional rye bread spiciness, which comes from Caraway seeds. I added .5oz of crushed Caraway seed, in a hop bag, to the kettle at flame out and steeped for 15 minutes. The result is wonderful! It is smooth, roasty, slightly sweet but also dry and just a touch of spicy bitterness in the finish. Full, rich, creamy mouth feel. Aroma is very similar to a mild pumpernickel bread. The Caraway seeds come through in the aroma and give a nice earthy spicy note that compliments the roasty chocolaty aromas in the beer. Super easy drinking and delicious. The Caraway seed will be a permanent addition to this recipe.
 

madscientist451

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 10, 2014
Messages
4,358
Reaction score
2,043
Location
Bedford
If the rye doesn't give it the spicy character then what would have given the beer I had that lovely spicy/zingy character? The hops? The crystal malt? Did they dump in some kind of spice and just not tell anyone?

I listened to the Brulosophy podcast where they did tests with rye and even with substantial amounts of rye they couldn't discern much flavor impact from it either. I wonder if the brewers at the Lucky Labrador would just give me their recipe.... I kind of doubt it.


I'll look into picking up some rye crystal malt. It can't hurt and I won't need very much.
Go ahead and ask them, what's the worst thing that would happen, they say no, its a secret? Type up your recipe and bring it along, then ask if you could show them a recipe that is somewhat like their rye beer and if they could give you some advice.
I think you're on the right track thinking about using crystal rye, they say they use 23% rye, some of that could be crystal.
Commercial brewers usually like to keep things simple, they don't want to measure out a bunch of different malts so, split the 23% rye 50-50 malted rye and crystal, the rest of the grains 2 row.
 
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
It sounds like the consensus is that the rye won't add spiceyness. That tracks with most of what I've read about first hand accounts. The "spicy" character of rye appears to be received wisdom passed down and doesn't jibe with most people's actual experiences.

When I say "spicy" I don't mean it was super overpowering. It was more on the back end of a swig. And it was spicy kind of like a very mild black pepper. Not sweet spicy like cloves. I would say it had a mild and pleasant "bite", but not in a sour/tart way.

I've baked with rye flour a long time ago and I don't recall it adding a spicy flavor. Heavy and grainy (not at all unpleasant) but not spicy.

Was the 0.5 ounces of caraway for a five gallon batch? It sounds like a little could go a long way so I would have to turn the amount down for a one gallon batch. I was thinking of toasting the seeds and tossing in a few at flameout.

The shop I went to today (not my normal, very local one) was out of crystal rye. They did have chocolate rye which I snagged a little of. I won't use it in this recipe but I like the idea of having it on hand. I am going to get crystal rye later this week.

I'm actually growing caraway in my garden for seed. I am tempted to grab a few leaves and try stuffing them in there. But I suspect I would get a weird flavor.
 

Coastalbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
431
Reaction score
139
Was the 0.5 ounces of caraway for a five gallon batch? It sounds like a little could go a long way so I would have to turn the amount down for a one gallon batch. I was thinking of toasting the seeds and tossing in a few at flameout.

I'm actually growing caraway in my garden for seed. I am tempted to grab a few leaves and try stuffing them in there. But I suspect I would get a weird flavor.
Yes. the .5 is was for a 5.5 gallon batch. The recipe is:

5.5 G batch, mash @ 152* for 60 min
Grains
6.5# 2 row
3# rye malt
2# biscuit
.75# chocolate malt 350L
.5# C60
Hops
.75 oz Columbus @60
.25 oz Columbus @ 20
1 oz Willamette @ 5

.5 oz crushed Caraway seed @ flame out, steep for 15

Yeast
Wlp007 dry English ale
Ferment @ 67*

A little Caraway definitely goes a long way. Before my brew, I played around with different amounts steeped in hot water, like making tea, so I could get an idea of the flavor contribution and how the flavor changed based on the length of time the seeds were steeped. I got the quantity from a side bar in the "Home brew recipe Bible" by Chris Colby. He has a recipe for a rye IPA and in the side bar he suggests adding .5 to. 75 oz of Caraway seeds to a 5 gallon batch. He also suggests adding the seeds, like I did, at the end of the boil or at the end of fermentation, like you would a dry hop. I may try dosing one of the finished beers with a little Caraway seed to see what affect this second method has.

If the seeds are dried, you will definitely need to crush them to extract the flavors. I'm curious what effects toasting the seeds may have. Please post your results of you try this method.

Cheers!
 
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
Yes. the .5 is was for a 5.5 gallon batch. The recipe is:

5.5 G batch, mash @ 152* for 60 min
Grains
6.5# 2 row
3# rye malt
2# biscuit
.75# chocolate malt 350L
.5# C60
Hops
.75 oz Columbus @60
.25 oz Columbus @ 20
1 oz Willamette @ 5

.5 oz crushed Caraway seed @ flame out, steep for 15

Yeast
Wlp007 dry English ale
Ferment @ 67*

A little Caraway definitely goes a long way. Before my brew, I played around with different amounts steeped in hot water, like making tea, so I could get an idea of the flavor contribution and how the flavor changed based on the length of time the seeds were steeped. I got the quantity from a side bar in the "Home brew recipe Bible" by Chris Colby. He has a recipe for a rye IPA and in the side bar he suggests adding .5 to. 75 oz of Caraway seeds to a 5 gallon batch. He also suggests adding the seeds, like I did, at the end of the boil or at the end of fermentation, like you would a dry hop. I may try dosing one of the finished beers with a little Caraway seed to see what affect this second method has.

If the seeds are dried, you will definitely need to crush them to extract the flavors. I'm curious what effects toasting the seeds may have. Please post your results of you try this method.

Cheers!
Entered into Beersmith. Thank you. I think I will try toasting them and them steeping them in hot water. And try them raw as well. Toasting might accentuate the flavor or might blow it away. It helps with sesame seeds but that doesn't necessarily translate to all other spices.

I'm tempted to try my rye recipe and split it in half with half a gallon being with caraway and half a gallon without.
 

Coastalbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
431
Reaction score
139
Entered into Beersmith. Thank you. I think I will try toasting them and them steeping them in hot water. And try them raw as well. Toasting might accentuate the flavor or might blow it away. It helps with sesame seeds but that doesn't necessarily translate to all other spices.

I'm tempted to try my rye recipe and split it in half with half a gallon being with caraway and half a gallon without.
I thought about splitting the batch too, but then decided to just go for it. I'm really glad I did. The finished beer is amazing!

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.
Cheers!
 
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
I am tasting the Lucky Labrador rye as I write this. It isn't quite as exciting as I remember it being last week. But still good. The spicy flavor isn't as pronounced as I thought and it might just be the carbonation. But it is still good. I am not going to try and perfectly clone it. I am going to try the caraway seeds and some crystal rye. I think I can make something approaching a "pumpernickel" beer but that still tastes like beer
 

Coastalbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
431
Reaction score
139
I am tasting the Lucky Labrador rye as I write this. It isn't quite as exciting as I remember it being last week. But still good. The spicy flavor isn't as pronounced as I thought and it might just be the carbonation. But it is still good. I am not going to try and perfectly clone it. I am going to try the caraway seeds and some crystal rye. I think I can make something approaching a "pumpernickel" beer but that still tastes like beer
My rye brown ale is very reminiscent of pumpernickel. The Caraway comes through in the aroma and it is rich and smooth like a nice bread with a slightly dry finish. It's my favorite beer I've made to date.

Can't remember if I mentioned this before, but when you steep the Caraway seeds make sure you put them in a hop bag or something so you can get them out. Otherwise the flavor may get overwhelming

Let us know how it goes.

Cheers!
 
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
I will report back once I've tried it. I'll probably toast the carway and see how it it smells/tastes.

Anyone know what kind of flavor crysal rye gives? I haven't been able to find a good description online
 

Coastalbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
431
Reaction score
139
I get my ingredients from Atlantic brew supply. Their description says, Adds a rich amber to brown color. Adds typical rye flavor with caramel background with a sweet and spicy flavor. Use in Rye Ale, Rye Lager, Specialty Beers, Dunkel Rye Wheat. Use up to 15%
 
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
I get my ingredients from Atlantic brew supply. Their description says, Adds a rich amber to brown color. Adds typical rye flavor with caramel background with a sweet and spicy flavor. Use in Rye Ale, Rye Lager, Specialty Beers, Dunkel Rye Wheat. Use up to 15%
Thank you. That sounds like just what I'm looking for. I'll probably use the recipe I created above. Maybe a little more rye malt and a little less base malt. I think I'll start with US-05 for that "clean" taste and if the beer isn't crap I'll try again with the German ale yeast.
 
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
Why crush up the caraway so fine? Why not just use them whole? Caraway seeds are not particularly large and they seem to have potency whole. And it would be easier to filter them out in a bag if whole. I couldn't find a small enough bag at the brew shop so I will just tie up a piece of paint strainer and toss it in at flameout or a couple of minutes before flameout.
 

z-bob

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Oct 2, 2014
Messages
3,237
Reaction score
1,037
Location
Rochester, MN
Why crush up the caraway so fine? Why not just use them whole? Caraway seeds are not particularly large and they seem to have potency whole. And it would be easier to filter them out in a bag if whole. I couldn't find a small enough bag at the brew shop so I will just tie up a piece of paint strainer and toss it in at flameout or a couple of minutes before flameout.
I'd crush them with a mortar and pestle just to break the seed coats to let the goodness out, but not grind them to a powder. I *will* try this at some point, and that's what I intend to do; dump them loose into the kettle then filter them out with a paint strainer going into the fermenter.
 
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
I'd crush them with a mortar and pestle just to break the seed coats to let the goodness out, but not grind them to a powder. I *will* try this at some point, and that's what I intend to do; dump them loose into the kettle then filter them out with a paint strainer going into the fermenter.
I have a spare coffee grinder. I think I'll try using that. I also think I will give them a light toast in a pan first. I don't know if toasting will help them or not. We shall see. It helps immensely with sesame seeds.

I'll probably boil the paint strainer in water to sanitize and test whether it can take high temps. If it can't I'll just toss in the seeds and hope the auto siphon filters them out or they drop to the bottom.

First I'm going to make a milk stout though. I think my mother will like that.
 

Coastalbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2018
Messages
431
Reaction score
139
@Nick Z in my testing the flavor of the seeds didn't come out when I didn't crush the seeds. I put my seeds in a zip lock bag and ran a rolling pin over then a few times, just enough to open them up but not turn them into powder. I sanitized a paint strainer bag and hung it in the kettle for the 15 minutes steep. Worked great
 
OP
N

Nick Z

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2019
Messages
196
Reaction score
28
So.... the first batch is in the fermenter. But things didn't quite go according to plan. I had a boil over and so I lost some wort and hops. That kind of threw off my whole timing and I ended up just tossing about seven caraway seeds in at about 10 minutes before the end of the boil. Not toasted or ground up.

I ran the wort through a fine mesh strainer and then again through an even finer one so I'm pretty confident I got out the caraway seeds.

I only ended up with a gallon of wort (I was aiming for 1.10-1.25 gallons so I could rack clear wort off of the trub). The yeast is gathering strength now and I expect to see serious fermentation within twelve hours. I ended up using SafAle US-05.

I'll try again next week probably. This time I think I will use regular crystal malt. Probably 15L as I recall the rye beer I am trying to clone as being fairly pale.

Once this batch is fermented out I'll give a report. But it will need to be bottle conditioned and chilled before I really know what it's like.
 
Top