Troubleshooting astringency in BIAB

[vNmd]

Trying to track down and eliminate astringency issues in a lot of my BIAB batches. One of the things I read was that mashing in too large water volume can cause the extraction of tannins. Since I BIAB I have been using the total amount of water for the mash. Should I cut the water back to the 1.5 quarts per pound of grain for my mash then add the rest of the water when the grain is removed before the boil?

Also in the BIAB sticky it says to mash out @ 170 for 10 minutes at the end of the mash, but I have also read that over 170 can cause astringency. I have checked my thermometer and it is accurate. Would mashing out a few degrees under 170 still do the job without causing potential astringency?

Thanks

 

[bigdongsr94]

Do not use full volume unless you are building your water to take care of your pH. Especially in light colored small grain bill beers, tannins can be released going full volume. I also had some similar flavors from brewing electric and scorching wort. If you are electric than make sure you have pulse width to control your boil.

I don't mash out. It's not a big deal to do it or not so try without to eliminate that possible problem. Once you have it conquered you can try with mash out again.

 

[1MadScientist]

Full volume mash BIAB and a proper slow ramp up to mash out at the end of a 90 mins. mash is the way to go, if it's doable.

To be getting astringency means to me that your water must be at a very high pH to begin with and the phosphates in the husks are not dropping the pH to a good level, ~5.3 .... if it's at 6+ pH at the end of the mash (which is not good) then the 170 F temp is causing it. Astrigency is not either an on or off thing, it is on a curve.

IMO, you should start to look at your water and post your questions to the science guys.

Here is a similar post like yours, read what jds has to say in post #3 and #8.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/mash-ph-full-volume-no-sparge-mash-146961/#post1677789

 

[vNmd]

Thanks. I don't think it is the water. I use bottled spring water (deerpark). I check the pH with the little strips and it shows between 5.0 & 5.4. I have checked some batches before and other batches after the mash. Not sure of the accuracy of the strips though.

 

[RM-MN]

Trying to track down and eliminate astringency issues in a lot of my BIAB batches. One of the things I read was that mashing in too large water volume can cause the extraction of tannins. Since I BIAB I have been using the total amount of water for the mash. Should I cut the water back to the 1.5 quarts per pound of grain for my mash then add the rest of the water when the grain is removed before the boil?

Also in the BIAB sticky it says to mash out @ 170 for 10 minutes at the end of the mash, but I have also read that over 170 can cause astringency. I have checked my thermometer and it is accurate. Would mashing out a few degrees under 170 still do the job without causing potential astringency?

Thanks

Cut the mash out from your schedule. With BIAB it isn't necessary. With a conventional mash tun and batch sparging it isn't necessary. It is only needed when you are fly sparging because you will be holding the mash at mash temps for hours while you fly sparge and you need to denature the enzymes so they don't keep working and give you a much drier beer than intended.

With BIAB, when the mash is over, you pull the bag of grains out of the water, effectively ending the mash. Then you turn the heat on to bring it to a boil. That will end the mash for sure. You won't be sparging for long either.

 

[Weezy]

Recommend dropping the mash out also. There's no point since your moving to boil in short order anyway, and a sure fire way to extract tannins and create astringency is to expose the grains to high temps just above mash out temps.

 

[JLem]

Thanks. I don't think it is the water. I use bottled spring water (deerpark). I check the pH with the little strips and it shows between 5.0 & 5.4. I have checked some batches before and other batches after the mash. Not sure of the accuracy of the strips though.

I'm pretty sure that all astringency issues come back to the water and pH. With proper mash pH you won't get tannin extraction and thus no astringency.

 

[RM-MN]

Both the above posts contain part of the information. You cannot extract tannins just by heating the wort above 170. If you could, decoction beers would be undrinkable since they remove part of the mash, heat it to boiling, then return it to the mash tun to increase the temperature of the mash. You also don't extract much tannins by having high pH. It's when the pH goes high and you raise the temperature that tannin extraction really happens. Control the pH and you have no tannin extraction. Control the temperature and you limit the tannins. Do both and you make good beer.

 

[aiptasia]

Another thought: I was having the same issue using roasted grains. I love stouts and darker beers and noticed massive astringency problems in my first few batches. If you're using a lot of crystal malts, chocolate, black patent or anything else roasted that doesn't need to be mashed, consider doing a grain tea for 48 hours before your brew day.

In your recipe, place all of your roasted grains into a grain bag and soak them in 1 quart per pound of bottled water for 48 hours. Dunk and drain the grain bag 6x (3x a day) during this soak to extract the roasted sugars. Since the grains are already roasted, the cold soak just extracts the roasted sugars and not the tannin. What's left over is a sweet, smooth tasting roasted malt grain tea that can be added to your boil with no tannin issues. Use a small colander to drain out as much of the grain tea as you can. Just sit the grain bag in it when you're draining it out and walk away for 20 minutes.

My boil off for BIAB is about 1 gallon per hour on my setup, so it's pretty easy to estimate my volumes to accommodate the grain tea. You can add it at any time during the boil as it is tannin free. I like to add it at the beginning of the boil.

 

[Foosier]

I BIAB, full volume, mash out at 170 and do not test my water (city water). I have never had issues with astringency. As others have said astringency is caused by high Ph and high temp. The normal chemical reactions of the grain and water should in most instances get you to the right PH without you doing anything else.

The reason most of us BIAB is to save time and save money on equipment while still making excellent beers. The accepted best practice is to mash in with the full volume of water. Doing this, by itself, will have no impact on astringency. If it ddid, BIAB would not be as popular a method as it has become.

I would recommend:
1: Checking out some of the "astringency" posts in the all grain forum as there are some with much better info.
2: Make sure you have calibrated your thermometer. If it is off, you might not be mashing out at 170. You might be mashing much hotter.
3: Are you controlling fermentation temps? That is a major cause of off flavors. If you are not, control that first. You might not be tasting tanins but rather the result of unhappy yeast.

 

[vNmd]

Thanks all. I appriciate the info. I am going to reduce the water and drop the mash out on the next batch. Unfortunately all my fermenters are full, so it will be a couple weeks before my next batch. I haven't done any dark grains but probably will for the winter months. I can't wait to test this. Must resist temptation to buy additional ferment bucket...

 

[vNmd]

I would recommend:
1: Checking out some of the "astringency" posts in the all grain forum as there are some with much better info.
2: Make sure you have calibrated your thermometer. If it is off, you might not be mashing out at 170. You might be mashing much hotter.
3: Are you controlling fermentation temps? That is a major cause of off flavors. If you are not, control that first. You might not be tasting tanins but rather the result of unhappy yeast.

I have been reading loads of these posts, damn good info out there. The thermometer is fairly spot on. I have tested it a couple times. My temps are good, fermentation chambers rock! I do starters to make the yeast happy. One thing about the starters is, I was doing small starters (2C water, 1/2 cup DME from another sticky). That was the last thing I changed on my last batch. Bought a bigger flask and doing larger starters.

Thanks again for the info. I will get rid of this problem sooner or later

 

[Lupulus]

Your problem is pH. The strips are not accurate. Buy a pH meter or get a friend with a meter to brew with you until you fine tune your process. Best of lucks!

 

[shuckit]

I would confirm mash pH with a calibrated meter before looking else where for the problem. Many, including myself do full volume mashes with no astringency.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Might as well suggest Hannah checker As a cheap meter. Amazon and it was like $30. Order the 4.0 and 7.0 solutions and a storage solution so you do things right from the start.