Tripel trouble...

[dorklord]

Ok, trouble is an overstatement.

First off, greetings all! Sorry I've not been around much lately, it looks like there's a lot of new posts to catch up on!

So, back to my topic. I've got a Tripel that I brewed a while ago. (I'll have to check my log at home to be sure, but estimates point to April 10, 2010)

The time has come to bottle this stuff. Now, this beer has been secondary for a long, long time, and my guess is the yeast that was still floating about when I transferred to secondary has now had plenty of time to die, go dormant, or evolve beyond the constraints of the material universe.

So I think it best to toss some new yeast in there.

So, I've got 2 questions:

1) What yeast? Champagne yeast, or Safbrew T-58?

2) Any recommended procedure? I mean, should I pitch the yeast into the carboy ahead of time, should I put it in the bottling bucket with the priming sugar? I'm just wondering as I've got at least a few days before I bottle this stuff...

 

[DKershner]

So, I've got 2 questions:

1) What yeast? Champagne yeast, or Safbrew T-58?

2) Any recommended procedure? I mean, should I pitch the yeast into the carboy ahead of time, should I put it in the bottling bucket with the priming sugar? I'm just wondering as I've got at least a few days before I bottle this stuff...

You can use whatever yeast you want, I would go with whatever you used for the batch though.

Pitch the yeast the same time you add the priming sugar. You can use 1/3 of a packet if you like, or the whole thing, shouldn't matter that much. Mix well and you should be good to go.

 

[dorklord]

You can use whatever yeast you want, I would go with whatever you used for the batch though.

Pitch the yeast the same time you add the priming sugar. You can use 1/3 of a packet if you like, or the whole thing, shouldn't matter that much. Mix well and you should be good to go.

I've heard some people say to use Champagne and others to use either the same yeast as you used to make the beer or a clean fermenting yeast.

I've got a couple packets of T-58 and a packet of Champagne yeast, if it doesn't matter I'll probably save the T-58 for my next batch(s) and use the champagne...

Thanks for the quick reply!

 

[Jenks829]

I've never had beer in a secondary for that long but I've had Apfelwein in the primary for 5 or 6 months and never had a problem with having enough yeast for carbonation. One thing I would be concerned with is if you add a different yeast (especially one that is meant for higher alcohol tolerance), the new yeast may be able to eat a lot of the sugars left behind by the original yeast. This may lead to over-carbed beers. As DKershner said, I would go with the same yeast you fermented with.

If you did go with a champagne yeast, I would add it to the secondary and wait a day or two and look for signs of a secondary fermentation. If yes, then wait until they subside before bottling. If no, then go ahead and bottle. Either way, you should have enough to get the job done.

 

[dorklord]

I've never had beer in a secondary for that long but I've had Apfelwein in the primary for 5 or 6 months and never had a problem with having enough yeast for carbonation. One thing I would be concerned with is if you add a different yeast (especially one that is meant for higher alcohol tolerance), the new yeast may be able to eat a lot of the sugars left behind by the original yeast. This may lead to over-carbed beers. As DKershner said, I would go with the same yeast you fermented with.

If you did go with a champagne yeast, I would add it to the secondary and wait a day or two and look for signs of a secondary fermentation. If yes, then wait until they subside before bottling. If no, then go ahead and bottle. Either way, you should have enough to get the job done.

I added the champagne yeast. My last batch of beer (an Enkel) didn't ever carb up like I wanted, and I'm not sure if it is because of the yeast or that I didn't add enough corn sugar (I used 3/4 of a cup...)

Anyway, is there any reason to expect that it will have an effect on how long it takes to carbonate? Should I keep the beer at a higher or lower temp for carbonation (I know normally you want to keep it at fermentation temp, which was fairly high for the trappist yeast I used).

It seems like getting proper carbonation is the hardest part of bottling...

 

[Jenks829]

I added the champagne yeast. My last batch of beer (an Enkel) didn't ever carb up like I wanted, and I'm not sure if it is because of the yeast or that I didn't add enough corn sugar (I used 3/4 of a cup...)

Anyway, is there any reason to expect that it will have an effect on how long it takes to carbonate? Should I keep the beer at a higher or lower temp for carbonation (I know normally you want to keep it at fermentation temp, which was fairly high for the trappist yeast I used).

It seems like getting proper carbonation is the hardest part of bottling...

Temp is usually the largest factor in how long it will take a beer to carbonate. Most who brew will recommend 70°F for 3 weeks. After that, place one in the fridge for a day or two and try it. If it has good carbonation then you are good to go, if not, wait longer.

If you had a beer that didn't carb up enough, I would hypothesize the lack of priming sugar is the culprit. The priming sugar is the limiting factor. You don't need a ton of yeast to bottle carb; just the quantity that is floating around in the beer is usually sufficient. But if you short the sugar, there is only so much CO2 that can be produced.

Many brewers carb to style using one of the many charts/calculators that can be found on-line (some more complicated than others). Here is an example of Palmer's:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter11-4.html

Personally, I don't pay too much attention to this (although, sometimes I wish I did). My bottling regiment is 5oz of dextrose (corn sugar) for 5 gallons of beer.

 

[dorklord]

Temp is usually the largest factor in how long it will take a beer to carbonate. Most who brew will recommend 70°F for 3 weeks. After that, place one in the fridge for a day or two and try it. If it has good carbonation then you are good to go, if not, wait longer.

If you had a beer that didn't carb up enough, I would hypothesize the lack of priming sugar is the culprit. The priming sugar is the limiting factor. You don't need a ton of yeast to bottle carb; just the quantity that is floating around in the beer is usually sufficient. But if you short the sugar, there is only so much CO2 that can be produced.

Many brewers carb to style using one of the many charts/calculators that can be found on-line (some more complicated than others). Here is an example of Palmer's:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter11-4.html

Personally, I don't pay too much attention to this (although, sometimes I wish I did). My bottling regiment is 5oz of dextrose (corn sugar) for 5 gallons of beer.

I used 3/4 of a cup of corn sugar, and the beer was at 70 F before I bottled it, which should have yielded around 2.3 or 2.4 volumes of CO2...maybe I'm just serving it too cold?

For my Tripel, I aimed for a little higher carbonation and used 5.7 ounces of corn sugar...

 

[DKershner]

I used 3/4 of a cup of corn sugar, and the beer was at 70 F before I bottled it, which should have yielded around 2.3 or 2.4 volumes of CO2...maybe I'm just serving it too cold?

For my Tripel, I aimed for a little higher carbonation and used 5.7 ounces of corn sugar...

As for your earlier question (not quoted) ABV, quantity of yeast, and temperature are the only things that affect how long carbonation will take. (Note that these are the exact same things that affect fermentation).

Your words here make me think there is something wrong in your process. You said that the beer was 70F before you bottled it...but it only matters for the 3 weeks after you bottle it...

Why don't you tell us your exact post-fermentation procedure and maybe we can spot something.

 

[dorklord]

As for your earlier question (not quoted) ABV, quantity of yeast, and temperature are the only things that affect how long carbonation will take. (Note that these are the exact same things that affect fermentation).

Your words here make me think there is something wrong in your process. You said that the beer was 70F before you bottled it...but it only matters for the 3 weeks after you bottle it...

Why don't you tell us your exact post-fermentation procedure and maybe we can spot something.

I thought that the temperature in the various priming calculators was the temperature of the beer before bottling (used to determine how much dissolved CO2 is already in the beer?)

Anyway, I'll have to look at my brewer's log at home to get exact details, but I would have taken a final gravity reading sample with my thief, boiled as little water as possible to dissolve the 3/4 cup of corn sugar on the stove, put that into the sink with cold water and then either used my thermometer to make sure it was below 100 F, or waited until I was sure water was cool (the pot wasn't warm to the touch even after sitting out of the water for a while).

Then I'd have added the priming mixture to the bottling bucket, then siphoned in the beer from my carboy (trying not to get the yeast off the bottom of the carboy and trying not to splash), and then bottled. I put the bottles into a bucket of star-san, then pull them out and drain as much starsan as possible from the bottle (so there is usually a tiny bit of foam left in the bottle) and then fill 'her up. I fill the bottles right to the top before pulling out the wand, and the airspace looks to be basically the same amount as the commercial beers I've seen (I could measure a bottle tonight to be sure).

I bottled this batch in 1 case (12) of 22 oz bottles and the rest in 12 oz bottles (I think I got 4 or 5 six-packs of 12 oz bottles?). I put it in my spare bedroom. I brewed this batch in the late spring/early summer, I'd have to look at my log to get the actual date I bottled, but the first month the beer was in bottles, it would have been 70-75 in the room. It stayed above 70 in there for at least a few months. I would usually take a 6 pack out of the room and put it in the kitchen, and then toss a bottle or two in the fridge as needed. I tried letting a couple bottles warm up to 45 or 50 degrees before drinking them, and although it made a difference, it was still well below the carbonation level of, say, New Grist right out of the fridge.

There's basically no head whatsoever on the beer, and if don't drink it 'quite quickly' after pouring, it goes totally flat.

If I mix it with New Grist, its pretty dang good (although now that I'm down to the 22oz bottles, I don't have a glass large enough to mix 1 bottle of homebrew with 1 bottle of New Grist!)

 

[DKershner]

Your procedure looks sound.

It's normal for GF beers to have no head, a lot of the proteins that create heads on beer are derived from gluten. Head is not necessarily an indicator of carbonation, although carbonation is necessary for head to form.

It might be that your beer is carbonated or partially carbonated and you can't tell because there is no head to show you. Tough to say for certain without seeing or tasting it. Does your bottle make an air rushing noise when you open it?

Also, the carbonation tables are for serving temperature, not fermentation or bottling temperature. Colder beer holds more carbonation, so when you are warming it up you are actually decreasing the carbonation.

 

[dorklord]

Your procedure looks sound.

It's normal for GF beers to have no head, a lot of the proteins that create heads on beer are derived from gluten. Head is not necessarily an indicator of carbonation, although carbonation is necessary for head to form.

It might be that your beer is carbonated or partially carbonated and you can't tell because there is no head to show you. Tough to say for certain without seeing or tasting it. Does your bottle make an air rushing noise when you open it?

Also, the carbonation tables are for serving temperature, not fermentation or bottling temperature. Colder beer holds more carbonation, so when you are warming it up you are actually decreasing the carbonation.

There's a very little noise when I open the bottles, not as much as my previous batch or New Grist. I know that GF beer doesn't usually have as good of head as 'normal' beer (although my first batch, Witless, was great) but I don't really even get much for bubbles in the glass.

The beer isn't totally flat, it just seems quite a lot less carbonated than my last batch or than the New Grist.

I actually took one of the 22oz bottles, popped it open, and dumped a little bit of sugar in it the other night, then recapped it. So we'll see if it gets any better.

I wish I could find that video I saw before where a guy opens up a beer every day after bottling until it is fully carbonated, then I could tell where on that scale the noise and 'bubbly-ness' of my beer falls.

 

[DKershner]

There's a very little noise when I open the bottles, not as much as my previous batch or New Grist. I know that GF beer doesn't usually have as good of head as 'normal' beer (although my first batch, Witless, was great) but I don't really even get much for bubbles in the glass.

The beer isn't totally flat, it just seems quite a lot less carbonated than my last batch or than the New Grist.

I actually took one of the 22oz bottles, popped it open, and dumped a little bit of sugar in it the other night, then recapped it. So we'll see if it gets any better.

I wish I could find that video I saw before where a guy opens up a beer every day after bottling until it is fully carbonated, then I could tell where on that scale the noise and 'bubbly-ness' of my beer falls.

I would just let it sit a bit longer. Keep in mind that 22's take longer to carb than 12's.

 

[dorklord]

I would just let it sit a bit longer. Keep in mind that 22's take longer to carb than 12's.

I bottled the batch in July.

The only thing I can figure at this point is either I somehow didn't add as much sugar as I thought, my yeast was just plain dead, or my bottles didn't seal. Or my sugar didn't get mixed thoroughly enough, and some of the remaining bottles are overcarbed and primed to explode...

 

[DKershner]

I bottled the batch in July.

The only thing I can figure at this point is either I somehow didn't add as much sugar as I thought, my yeast was just plain dead, or my bottles didn't seal. Or my sugar didn't get mixed thoroughly enough, and some of the remaining bottles are overcarbed and primed to explode...

Could be that, or could be that by the time you bottled most of the yeast were dead. I havent bottled with sugar in awhile, but I remember the process being pretty inconsistent.

 

[dorklord]

Could be that, or could be that by the time you bottled most of the yeast were dead. I havent bottled with sugar in awhile, but I remember the process being pretty inconsistent.

Are you kegging, or using something else for bottle priming?

I don't know all of the types of carbonation drops, but the ones I've seen seem to have DME in them...

 

[DKershner]

Are you kegging, or using something else for bottle priming?

I don't know all of the types of carbonation drops, but the ones I've seen seem to have DME in them...

Kegging.

 

[DirtbagHB]

what kind of air space did you leave in the bottles when your were filling them? my bottling has been pretty consistant when using corn sugar. i havent used honey or carb tabs. i keg now and force carb, still bottle from time to time. only bottles ive ever had blow.. blew cuz i froze them not from over carbing. 3/4cup corn sugar to 5 gal of brew... good basic standard

 

[dorklord]

what kind of air space did you leave in the bottles when your were filling them? my bottling has been pretty consistant when using corn sugar. i havent used honey or carb tabs. i keg now and force carb, still bottle from time to time. only bottles ive ever had blow.. blew cuz i froze them not from over carbing. 3/4cup corn sugar to 5 gal of brew... good basic standard

I filled them up as much as my bottling wand easily allows...