Tried a new HBS, sucky results...

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slippryj

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So I've been all grain for a couple years now and I've been averaging about 75 - 80% efficiency. I recently moved to an area that has a local HBS, which I prefer to ordering ingredients from web vendors. I've had a number of successful brews from the ingredients purchased from said HBS and I really like the place.

So long story long, I was traveling and tried a different HBS. Their prices were good and their crush looked great! However, my collection fell 20 points short of what I was expecting (1.050 instead of the expected 1.070). The only other thing I did differently was to use Carafa III in my mash. I've read different techniques of using Carafa III and I just decided to go with dumping it in with my full mash.

The Carafa made up for 1 lb of the 14 lb grain bill. My PH was normal for what I've been doing (5.4) and I used 152 F as my single-stage.

Thoughts? Did the new HBS crush just not work well for my setup? Did I fail at Carafa III?
 
slippryj said:
So I've been all grain for a couple years now and I've been averaging about 75 - 80% efficiency. I recently moved to an area that has a local HBS, which I prefer to ordering ingredients from web vendors. I've had a number of successful brews from the ingredients purchased from said HBS and I really like the place.

So long story long, I was traveling and tried a different HBS. Their prices were good and their crush looked great! However, my collection fell 20 points short of what I was expecting (1.050 instead of the expected 1.070). The only other thing I did differently was to use Carafa III in my mash. I've read different techniques of using Carafa III and I just decided to go with dumping it in with my full mash.

The Carafa made up for 1 lb of the 14 lb grain bill. My PH was normal for what I've been doing (5.4) and I used 152 F as my single-stage.

Thoughts? Did the new HBS crush just not work well for my setup? Did I fail at Carafa III?
Click to expand...

Even IF the carafa didn't convert (I'm sure it did), it wouldn't account for 20 points anyway.

You had a 14 pound grainbill of typical grains, and only got 1.050? I would get something like 1.077 with 14 pounds of grain, assuming a 5 gallon batch. Your efficiency really took a hit this time- it is about 50% efficiency!

My first guess is that you didn't have 14 pounds of grain. Is that a possibility?
 
If they crushed it, I would guess thats where your answer lies. Although you did say it looked fine...
 
Maybe some old (like, really old) grain??? Was this shop in a busy area where you expect high turnover?

I used 3 question marks above because it would seem like it would have to be REALLY old grain to lose 20 points, and a shop that can't sell base malts like that wouldn't be open for long. Unless this new shop bought up an old shop's stock...

Bah, now I am almost into conspiracy theory territory. All pardons.
 
I used a brewshop while traveling once too....their scale didn't have anything but paper bags for placing on the scale. As a result, when I started adding my pound of specialty grain, it just kept going and going, but not adding weight fast enough. The bag had slumped off the side some and wasn't getting a true weight reading. I re-centered it and it seemed like I may have added an extra pound of chocolate malt :( Oh well. Now I'm extra careful of new shops.

14lbs is a indeed a large grain bill to only get 1.05 out of, I'm wondering if they missed the receiving container with some of the milled grain?
 
If they have a vacuum hooked to the mill to control dust, maybe it was mis-calibrated and sucking in grain as well...I had this happen once.
 
Nope, I measured out the grain and ran it trough their mill myself. It's a reputable joint with good reviews, friendly staff, clean and well layed out. I did a 15 lb brew last week and managed 1.077 post boil @ 5.5 gallons, so I'm thinking my equipment is okay.

Thank you all for your quick responses, I'm thinking their crush just isn't compatible with my equipment. They're the only home brew store to serve a very large county, so my guess is they have adequate turn on their product.

I attached the only shot I have of the grain. It was during my mash and I took it not expecting any extraction issues.

image.jpg
 
The grain I see doesn't looked crushed at all. It could be just a few "floaters" but I don't think so.

Maybe someone monkeyed around with their mill and the gap is way too wide? If you think the crushed looked good, then I'm puzzled. But the grains floating aren't crushed a bit.
 
I agree with Yooper. See if they can tighten up the crush for you next time. Or tighten it yourself if possible. :)
 
Looks like the crush isn't right. We have our own mill and never see whole kernels like those on the spoon or in the mash tun.
 
Did you have any wheat in your grain bill? I used to have a trouble with wheat falling through the mill until I started mixing them up with the other malt.

Most likely the uncrushed grain would of never completely converted, but if you have a refractometer you can use it to check for complete conversion and extend you mash time if needed to get things to finish up.
 
The hulls were crushed but they weren't crushed nearly as fine as my normal HBS. I was mainly curious if it was how I used the Carafa or if it was the crush. Looks like the crush is not good for my setup.

Thanks for the input and observations!
 
christyle said:
another for a poor crush, there look to be a few full kernels on the spoon there.
Click to expand...

A few? :D Zoom into the picture, the entire mash is full of full grains...not sure how that snuck by OP thats a very large amount of uncrushed grains.
 
Get yourself a mill and crush your own grain, I have not looked back since i did that.
 
I've been getting around 50% total efficiency with my all grain batches. I suspected the HBS grain crush but then used a friend's mill and got the same. I'm going to get my own mill for Christmas and eliminate that variable for sure. But My next batch, I am going to take gravity readings on first runnings and sparge runnings. Take note of all water volumes in and out. Then do a full analysis and figure out where the hell my sugar went. I suppose you could do the same if it happens again.
 
slippryj said:
The hulls were crushed but they weren't crushed nearly as fine as my normal HBS. I was mainly curious if it was how I used the Carafa or if it was the crush. Looks like the crush is not good for my setup.

Thanks for the input and observations!
Click to expand...

Nothing to do with the crush being not good for your setup, it's simply not good. Someone probably ****ed with the mill's gap. If you stop back in there again check the grain more thoroughly.
 
Probably a dumb question on my part, but did you perform an iodine test after the mash to check for full conversion?
 
My LHBS doesn't crush the same as my old store did; On brew day I always seem to come in a little low on my O.G., and I don't remember when I am at the LHS. The last time I got grain there I had him double crush it, and it seems I am the only person that asks him to do it...
 
My LHBS made up a new "grain order sheet", and a new option is the double-crush.

:ban:
 
Last time I was in my LHBS, they had a sign on their grain mill: "no double crushing". When I asked why, they claimed the extra flour from double crush ruined their mill. I bought a corona mill the next day and have been ordering my bulk grains online ever since.
 
They should buy a new mill. Their current one is obviously cheap & ratty.

Or maybe they are lying, lazy SOB's.

:D
 

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