Topping off with water
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I don't think that topping off with AG is generally a no-no. The reason people typically top off is because they don't have a pot big enough to boil the full volume, but most people that are doing AG will have upgraded to an appropriate size brew kettle. Procedurally, I don't think there is any issue with topping off an AG batch.
Where did you hear that topping off all grain is a "no-no"?
Extract is typically boiled with less water and is more concentrated so you top off to meet your desired volume and to dilute the extract. but boiling extract at full volume I understand is more desirable for reasons I forget.
I am an all grain brewer and if I over shoot my desired OG and need to dilute my wart, I will top off at the end of the boil with some boiling water to bring my OG back down before I chill. I use a refractometer so getting my OG just before chilling is a snap.
To me, extract and all grain = the same thing at the end, just two different ways to get there.
Extract is typically boiled with less water and is more concentrated so you top off to meet your desired volume and to dilute the extract. but boiling extract at full volume I understand is more desirable for reasons I forget.
I am an all grain brewer and if I over shoot my desired OG and need to dilute my wart, I will top off at the end of the boil with some boiling water to bring my OG back down before I chill. I use a refractometer so getting my OG just before chilling is a snap.
To me, extract and all grain = the same thing at the end, just two different ways to get there.
Well, every all grain recipe out there is for a full 5 gallon boil. The extract receipes are generally 2.5 gallons to steep/mash specialty grains, add LME and bring to boil. Now, my small brew pot will burn off 1 gallon per hour, so after the hour boil, I will have around 1.5 gallons of wort. Then I would cool it to under 100 degrees, add 2 gallons cold water to fermenter, then add the wort. This would give me 3.5 gallons total. Instructions would then say to add more cold water to ge to five gallons. Just seems like quite a bit of added water (3.5 gallons). Could I mash all the grains, drain first runnings (around 3 gallons or so), skip any sparge and boil the 3 gallons? I would then have 2 gallons after boil and need to add 3 gallons cold water. Trying to come up with an indoor method when I can't get outside to the propane as my electric stove can not do a full boil.
Its better to boil near the full volume. Hop extraction is better. The mailliard reactions will change with wort density, etc. Also water chemistry from the mash, or something along those lines. And usually after sparging you are going to have at least 6 gallons to the brewpot on any batch over 1.040 or so.
That said, sometimes my final volume is a half gallon or a gallon low. (I tend to do 90 min boils for everything) Topping off is fine in that case, if your water supply is clean and good.
That said, sometimes my final volume is a half gallon or a gallon low. (I tend to do 90 min boils for everything) Topping off is fine in that case, if your water supply is clean and good.
I am confused, are you extract brewing or all-grain brewing?
Mash, first runnings and sparging are all-grain terms.
Extract brewing, I would, add as much water as I could to my boil kettle that will fit or I could reasonably boil on an electric stove whichever is logical,
First, steep your specialty grains for desired temp and time, remove your specialty grains, bring to boil, then kill flame before adding your extract, mix in extract thoroughly then bring back to boil, add hops as desired schedule. Then I would add water to meet my desired OG, I don’t care what the instructions say, my hop utilization is based off of my OG, if my water is short or over once my OG is met I would figure out why and adjust for next batch to meet both my OG and desired volume.
Mash, first runnings and sparging are all-grain terms.
Extract brewing, I would, add as much water as I could to my boil kettle that will fit or I could reasonably boil on an electric stove whichever is logical,
First, steep your specialty grains for desired temp and time, remove your specialty grains, bring to boil, then kill flame before adding your extract, mix in extract thoroughly then bring back to boil, add hops as desired schedule. Then I would add water to meet my desired OG, I don’t care what the instructions say, my hop utilization is based off of my OG, if my water is short or over once my OG is met I would figure out why and adjust for next batch to meet both my OG and desired volume.
agrazela
Well-Known Member
I do 4 gallon batches, AG BIAB (no sparge), partial boil in a 5gal kettle. And I top up with a good bit of water.
What I typically do (for recipes around 1.050-1.060 OG, which is most of what I make) is mash 10-12lbs of grain in 12-14qt of water (I usually get 60-65% efficiency, good enough for me), and at the end of boiling (after straining out spent hops through a sanitized stainless strainer into a sanitized HDPE bucket with quart markings) I typically wind up with 6 to 8 qts of very concentrated wort. I'll top that up to 8qts (2gal) with DI water, transfer that to a sanitized HDPE cubitainer through a sanitized funnel, and refrigerate for up to 3 or 4 days.
When I'm ready to pitch, I'll combine that cold wort with 2 gal room temp DI water in a 5gal Better Bottle (pitch temp always winds up 60-65°F that way), then go on with the rest of the process (aerate, pitch, ferment, etc.)
I use DI water and build up the ions, so I make sure all the salts for 4 gal worth of brew are added to that initial 12-14qts, but that mash pH will still be OK (I use the Bru'n Water spreadsheet, it's worked well for me). I also realize that there will be extra Maillard going on in the kettle because of the concentration, so I'll typically cut back a bit on the darker specialty malts in a lighter-colored brew. I also believe my hops utilization takes a hit, so I'll typically up the bittering hops about 25-40% (and/or use some pre-isomerized extract).
If I want to do slightly higher gravity brews, I'll cheat in a bit of high-maltose syrup, and maybe I might cheat in up to a lb of extract. Then again, sometimes I'll only mash 5-6lbs of grain (then I usually get 70-75% efficiency) and use 3-4lbs of extract (so, a partial mash). If I want to do some really high gravity and/or high-IBU brews, I'll either cut the batch size down to like 3gal by adding less top-up water--or do two half-batches to make a full 4-5 gal batch, in which case I really don't have to make any modifications for Maillard or hop utilization.
So yes, you can do AG (and PM) batches at "kitchen stovetop scale" and top off with a lot of water, in my experience up to half the batch (or more).
What I typically do (for recipes around 1.050-1.060 OG, which is most of what I make) is mash 10-12lbs of grain in 12-14qt of water (I usually get 60-65% efficiency, good enough for me), and at the end of boiling (after straining out spent hops through a sanitized stainless strainer into a sanitized HDPE bucket with quart markings) I typically wind up with 6 to 8 qts of very concentrated wort. I'll top that up to 8qts (2gal) with DI water, transfer that to a sanitized HDPE cubitainer through a sanitized funnel, and refrigerate for up to 3 or 4 days.
When I'm ready to pitch, I'll combine that cold wort with 2 gal room temp DI water in a 5gal Better Bottle (pitch temp always winds up 60-65°F that way), then go on with the rest of the process (aerate, pitch, ferment, etc.)
I use DI water and build up the ions, so I make sure all the salts for 4 gal worth of brew are added to that initial 12-14qts, but that mash pH will still be OK (I use the Bru'n Water spreadsheet, it's worked well for me). I also realize that there will be extra Maillard going on in the kettle because of the concentration, so I'll typically cut back a bit on the darker specialty malts in a lighter-colored brew. I also believe my hops utilization takes a hit, so I'll typically up the bittering hops about 25-40% (and/or use some pre-isomerized extract).
If I want to do slightly higher gravity brews, I'll cheat in a bit of high-maltose syrup, and maybe I might cheat in up to a lb of extract. Then again, sometimes I'll only mash 5-6lbs of grain (then I usually get 70-75% efficiency) and use 3-4lbs of extract (so, a partial mash). If I want to do some really high gravity and/or high-IBU brews, I'll either cut the batch size down to like 3gal by adding less top-up water--or do two half-batches to make a full 4-5 gal batch, in which case I really don't have to make any modifications for Maillard or hop utilization.
So yes, you can do AG (and PM) batches at "kitchen stovetop scale" and top off with a lot of water, in my experience up to half the batch (or more).
Sorry for the confusion. I was actually referring to extract partial/mash in the first part of my ramble. The last part was about all grain. Jus tbe be lear on the extract method. Are you adding the extract, mixing, bringing back to boil, adding hops and ALSO adding water at that point or are you adding the water at the end of the boil?
I would start off with as much water as I could fit into my boil kettle to get me as close to my desired volume as possible. You have two limitations to how much water you can boil. Your kettle size and your electric stove. Use as much water as your weakest tool will handle. I would add the remainder of the water to the fermenter at the end. This added water should be sterilized somehow, either boiled the night before and allowed to cool or distilled water or… whatever else works.
Some brewers even freeze their top up water to help chill the wart at the end, whatever gets you there.
But the OG is important, because your hop calculations are based off of this. IMO it is more important to hit OG than to hit volume.
Some brewers even freeze their top up water to help chill the wart at the end, whatever gets you there.
But the OG is important, because your hop calculations are based off of this. IMO it is more important to hit OG than to hit volume.
The reason topping off with all-grain is a "no no" is that it reduces efficiency. It's not like extract where you have XXX amount of sugars per pound. If you don't account for adding water (0 in SG points), and your efficiency is fairly low, you're literally watering down the wort. Extract batches, on the other hand have a set amount of sugar and so a recipe designed for 5 gallons using 6 pounds of extract is "set" that way. I hope that makes sense!
Some AG brewers do top off, and account for that in their efficiency. It reduces the brewhouse efficiency significantly, but it can be overcome if that is known in advance.
Some AG brewers do top off, and account for that in their efficiency. It reduces the brewhouse efficiency significantly, but it can be overcome if that is known in advance.
guess I'll toss in my 2c worth here. I sdo PB/PM BIAB. I'll mash about 6lbs of grain in 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 gallons of spring water. Dunk sparge with 1.5 gallons to get 3 1/2 gallons boil volume in my 5 gallon kettle. After straining the wort that's chilled to 75F or so, I top off with chilled spring water to recipe volume, usually 5 gallons. This gets the wort down to around 65F, a good ale temp. I rehydrate the dry yeast in spring water as well, heated to about 90F for 400mL of the spring water. Re-hydrate 30 minutes & pitch it stirred within 10 degrees of wort temp or closer. My OG's are usually substantially higher than recipe, but I look at it as a bonus. I still get down to stated FG range with no fusels or any of that. Just a bit more ABV.
The balance of flavor, aromas & colors wind up fine, just the bit more ABV is the only difference. I don't know why folks fret so much over it?!
I only stress OG because I see brewers in my circle go for quantity and forget about the numbers, they have to hit that 5 gallon mark then they compensate for trub and add a little more water to meet their bottle count, their mash efficiency came out low they boil for 90 minutes vs 60 so they have more boil off and then try to top it up to get back to that magic gallon mark, then by the end of it all they have a different beer than designed, still good beer but I see more measuring sticks than I do refractometers.
But each to their own, good beer is still good beer.
My efficiency is high enough to easily compensate. Plus I do 60 minute boils, as 90 minute ones aren't needed for most of today's well-modified malts. I also turn the electric stove burner down from "HI" to about 8.8 when the bittering addition goes in. This gives a lot less boil-off.
I mean no direct criticism to you unionrdr, I am only commenting on my observation of brewers in my circle and my opinion that OG is more important to me and to my style of brewing than final volume. I only mention 90 min. boil because with low mash efficiency one can compensate by boiling longer to meet desired OG by concentrating the wart, but then some brewers see less beer and top it up defeating the purpose.
I have focused more of my brewing energy on calculation to meet my OG and volumes that I can hit both but it took me many batches to dial in.
No criticism here either. a little wire crossing going on I guess? If efficiency is low, I'd look at the crush first. A good crush will give good efficiency of the right grain to water ratios are followed. Plus a good sparge. i like a 10 minute dunk sparge with my nylon grain bag so I can stir it to get more wort out of them. The sparge & main mash wort make up 100% of my boil volume, giving greater efficiency as well.
Once I got my "cereal killer" grain mill, my efficiency sky rocketed. Crush had a huge impact on my brewing, I BIAB.
Wires crossed??? not sure, probably my fault, it is hard to interpret text and meaning sometimes when it is typed out.
Wires crossed??? not sure, probably my fault, it is hard to interpret text and meaning sometimes when it is typed out.
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