Topping off an all grain batch questions???

[cadarnell]

I've been reading on here that it is OK to top off an all grain batch of beer ... not optimal, but OK to do ... what I haven't been able to find is the potential negative effects topping off could have on the beer. I have done a few all grains now and have topped all of them off but one ... now the one I didn't is a really good beer, but the others have been really good too .. it seems like if there are no possible negative effects then everyone would be topping off, to get wort boiling faster and chilled quicker, so there must be some ... does anyone know what they are, or has anyone experienced negative effects from topping off an all grain batch?

 

[Golddiggie]

It's more difficult to get the wort mixed up with the top-off water to get your OG reading. You have to really mix the hell out of the wort in order to get it to the same point as it would be if you simply did a full batch boil.

I don't have any issue with getting the wort to boil, now that I'm using a propane burner. It's also easy/fast to chill down with my 50' IC... If you have the right equipment/setup, then there's no issue with having the total volume needed for the batch at the end of the boil. I'm using a 32qt kettle for ~5 gallon batches without any trouble at all. IF your kettle/pot isn't large enough to have the batch size post boil, then you either need to top off, ferment a bit less, or get a larger pot/kettle... I would go with the third option if it was me...

 

[ayoungrad]

Most people on here relate topping off to condensed anything that requires dilution with water. The arguemewnt is that it just doesn't taste the same as non-concentrate. I used to top off. But I started to notice something was off in flavor. I don't top off anymore and I think that the problem is solved. Maybe it's pH. Maybe it is a reaction that occurs during boiling. Maybe it's less hot and cold break.

I don't know. But I definitely like full boils now.

This is not to say that you will not make good beer. But only that it would probably be better without topping off.

 

[jfowler1]

The two biggest problems I have heard with topping off/ partial boils are....

1.) You are introducing non-boiled water to your fermenter / cooled wort. The severity of this problem has been debated, but if I had to choose between sterile, boiled water, or unsterile tap water, I will choose the boiled. Why introduce an issue?

-obviously, you could partially eliminate this issue and still top off to meet your volumes if you pre-boiled water, and left it to be used later in the brewday for topping off.

2.) I have not had experience with this, but I always understood that another negative of the partial boil was that the change in volume (reduction) effects bittering/hopping. It makes sense. Also, this is not a higher gravity = less utilization argument, it is a less volume = different bittering argument. In other words, 2 brewers, same hop bill, one doing a partial boil and one doing a full boil, will probably not experience the same hop qualities in their beer. Topping off a bit is not the same as a true partial boil, but it falls in line with the same principle.

Again, no experience, just what I've heard.

Joe

 

[ayoungrad]

In re: jfowler1...

I always used water to top off that I had preboiled to sterilize and to which I had added capden at the time of boiling to treat for chloramine. And I still had an odd/off flavor. As I said, since I stopped topping off this is gone.

As for the utilization, there was a recent thread here on this subject and I responded similar to you. Someone rebuttled my comments by including a study (I think from BYO) that reportedly states that full boil and parital boil beers result in the same IBU levels...

 

[jfowler1]

In re: jfowler1...

I always used water to top off that I had preboiled to sterilize and to which I had added capden at the time of boiling to treat for chloramine. And I still had an odd/off flavor. As I said, since I stopped topping off this is gone.

As for the utilization, there was a recent thread here on this subject and I responded similar to you. Someone rebuttled my comments by including a study (I think from BYO) that reportedly states that full boil and parital boil beers result in the same IBU levels...

Very interesting. Thanks for following up.

I have no experience with such a situation, so no leg to stand on - just passing on what I had heard. Thanks for clearing that up.

Joe

 

[Yooper]

I think the only issue with topping off is a reduction in efficiency. Not a big deal if you're getting 85% efficiency- but if you only hit 65%, and then top off with water, you're "watering down" your wort. That would affect the balance of the beer, the IBU/SG ratio, the ABV, etc. If you account for this in the recipe, though, it's not a problem.

 

[jfowler1]

I think the only issue with topping off is a reduction in efficiency. Not a big deal if you're getting 85% efficiency- but if you only hit 65%, and then top off with water, you're "watering down" your wort. That would affect the balance of the beer, the IBU/SG ratio, the ABV, etc. If you account for this in the recipe, though, it's not a problem.

... speaking of leg to stand on.

 

[cadarnell]

I think the only issue with topping off is a reduction in efficiency. Not a big deal if you're getting 85% efficiency- but if you only hit 65%, and then top off with water, you're "watering down" your wort. That would affect the balance of the beer, the IBU/SG ratio, the ABV, etc. If you account for this in the recipe, though, it's not a problem.

the times I have topped off so far I have allotted for doing it in the recipe .. I just made a very consentrated wort and then diluted it with bottled water ... the beers have been great ... so once again I'm thinking why doesnt everyone just top off to reduce time in getting wort to a boil and cooling wort down? ... I know one person on here stopped topping off and an off flavor went away, but I do wonder if topping off was the problem. I wish there was some science that said for sure one way or the other ..... I also read on another post that someone had beers do well in competition that were topped off ... so I'm still sort of looking for the answer ... if there is no harm, whay isn't topping off the norm in all grain as it is in extract? ... I'm just the curious one I guess ...

 

[Golddiggie]

IMO/IME, topping off with extract batches is mostly due to not being able to do a full batch boil. Most people making extract batches can't boil the full volume, or don't have a good/fast way to cool down 5+ gallons of hot wort.

Once people decide to get more into home brewing, they get hardware so that they CAN boil the entire batch and not need to top off. They also get a wort chiller so that they can quickly cool it down. Sure, there are some that continue to boil less than the full batch size, and use other ways to cool the wort down (although a sink of cold water, and then adding ice to the bath is still a faster cooling method than most people start off with)... But, if you asked, the majority of those people would prefer to be able to boil the full batch size, and cool with an actual wort chiller.

Personally, since going all grain, there's no point in not boiling the full batch size. I would prefer to use the correct water to grain ratio for my mash, and then sparge with the balance. Since I have a propane burner now, heating the mash and sparge water happens very fast. I can also get the combined worts up to a boil very fast. Far faster than I could on the stove before going to all grain.

I also like how I no longer need to worry about shaking the hell out of the wort after topping it off, in order to get a good mixing. So much better on my back to just open the ball valve on the kettle and let it drain into the primary. I have an O2 system on the way (from Williams Brewing) that will take care of oxygenating the wort before pitching the yeast. One less item I need to be concerned over.

I'd also rather not cut corners where it doesn't make sense. To me, boiling less wort, and having to top-off with another gallon (or more) makes things more complicated and increases the chances of something going sideways... Far better, IMO, to simply do full batch boils if you can and not worry about it... After all, we're trying to make GREAT beer here... If you want to save time on brew day, then improve your process efficiency via better ways to heat the water.

It would be like trying to move a full trailer-load of inventory with a regular sized truck... Lots more effort than is necessary, when you could have done it better with the correct hardware.

 

[ayoungrad]

I think that the issue for a lot of people is that, at least on this board, many people are striving to make a better beer. Personally, I made a beer with topping off that scored very good (although not placing) in a competition. But I tasted something off so I wanted to improve it. In the same way, most that can eventually move away from topping off because they are looking to better their process.

If you look around this site, there are all sorts of suggestions for making things better: fermentation temperature control (really a MUST), proper yeast pitching rates, long primaries, no secondaries, warm carbonation temperatures, cold crashing, yeast oxygenation, all-grain, irish moss, wort chillers, full boils, decoction, water salt and ph adjustment etc, etc.

You can possibly make good beers or even great beers ignoring most of these things. But part of the fun is making them better.

I have no proof (except my own experience) but I believe that topping off will never have the same potential as a full boil. But then again, others did not taste the off flavor in my topped off beer (even in competition) but I did. And now it's gone before having changed anything besides no longer topping off.

 

[Bobby_M]

the times I have topped off so far I have allotted for doing it in the recipe .. I just made a very consentrated wort and then diluted it with bottled water ... the beers have been great ... so once again I'm thinking why doesnt everyone just top off to reduce time in getting wort to a boil and cooling wort down? ... I know one person on here stopped topping off and an off flavor went away, but I do wonder if topping off was the problem. I wish there was some science that said for sure one way or the other ..... I also read on another post that someone had beers do well in competition that were topped off ... so I'm still sort of looking for the answer ... if there is no harm, whay isn't topping off the norm in all grain as it is in extract? ... I'm just the curious one I guess ...

Yooper said it already. It's an efficiency issue. Making the higher gravity wort in itself is less efficient but topping off makes it worse. This is exhibited in non topped off batches of big beers like IIPA or barleywine.

If you don't mind spending 10-20% more money then there is no detriment.

 

[ayoungrad]

Yooper said it already. It's an efficiency issue. Making the higher gravity wort in itself is less efficient but topping off makes it worse. This is exhibited in non topped off batches of big beers like IIPA or barleywine.

If you don't mind spending 10-20% more money then there is no detriment.

Money has not been the issue for me - you're talking about 10-20 bucks per batch. But I still moved away from topping off.

As I said, I absolutely taste a difference between topping off an not on my set-up. Could I pick one out of a line-up? Probably not. But if you gave me them side-by-side I'm sure I would prefer the full boil version.

 

[cadarnell]

Money has not been the issue for me - you're talking about 10-20 bucks per batch. But I still moved away from topping off.

As I said, I absolutely taste a difference between topping off an not on my set-up. Could I pick one out of a line-up? Probably not. But if you gave me them side-by-side I'm sure I would prefer the full boil version.

I don't think I'm spending anymore money making a concentrated wort, that I will top off, as I do making one to the target OG .. I'm not sure that money is an issue at all ... I'm just still wondering if the final product is compromised by topping off .. I really just want some sort of definitive answer that says topping off will make my beer worse somehow .. like I said .. I'm just curious ... I can do full boils if I want .. although I don't have a chiller yet .. I just want to be talked out of doing partial boils and then adding water to help reduce my brew day time ... I have three kids and they need my time too .. so I'm always thinking of ways to get my hobby's in, without hurting my time with them ...

 

[Bobby_M]

I can understand not wanting to take my word for it but yes, you are spending more money to make concentrated wort. It's not going to make your beer worse, just more expensive.

Of course, I could illustrate how the efficiency varies if you tell me what volume of wort you are capable of boiling (or whatever volume you usually choose to boil).

If this were a extract batch, it would be the equivalent of taking a cup of LME out of the container and dumping it down the drain just before adding the rest to the boil kettle.

 

[cadarnell]

I can understand not wanting to take my word for it but yes, you are spending more money to make concentrated wort. It's not going to make your beer worse, just more expensive.

Of course, I could illustrate how the efficiency varies if you tell me what volume of wort you are capable of boiling (or whatever volume you usually choose to boil).

If this were a extract batch, it would be the equivalent of taking a cup of LME out of the container and dumping it down the drain just before adding the rest to the boil kettle.

I've been boiling 4 1/2 gallons down to about 3 1/2 and then topping off back up to 4 gallons ... I have a lot of my recipes set up as 4 gallon batches ... and I only seem to be buying the amount of grain it takes to make a 4 gallon batch even if I was doing a full boil ... but my main thing isnt the money, even if it is costing me more ... you said what I really wanted to hear .. "it isn't going to make my beer worse" ... I think for my next beer (a cream ale) ... I'm only going to boil 3 1/2 gallons down to about 2 1/2 and top it back to 4 gallons and compare it to some of the the same recipe I have still left that I started with 4 1/2 gallons of wort .... I do want to make really good beer, but I don't want it to take an hour longer than it has to. ... I've been brewing at night after the kids go down and getting in bed by 1 am is alot better than getting there by 2 am ... I'm really loving all these opinions ... keep um coming if you want fellow lovers of beer

 

[ayoungrad]

I seem to be in the minority opinion here which surprises me.

If you are satisfied with the taste of your beers, then there is no need to change.

If you want more definitive proof one way or the other, make the same beer both ways and draw your own opinion.

 

[cadarnell]

I seem to be in the minority opinion here which surprises me.

If you are satisfied with the taste of your beers, then there is no need to change.

If you want more definitive proof one way or the other, make the same beer both ways and draw your own opinion.

I agree ... I've only been brewing since I got a kit for christmas and it has been a lot of just trying things out so far ... like extract vs. AG ... I had to know right off the bat if AG was worth it so on my 3rd batch ever I did it AG, and I came to the conclusion that it tasted much better, so I'm staying with AG ... as far as this subject, I probably do need to do more than just the one full boil I've done so far and compare ... once again, I'm just trying to make sure I'm not doing something for no reason .. If I can boil less and top off with no detrimental effects on the beer, then that's what I'll do because it will save me time and the need for a chiller ... cheers man !!

 

[Bobby_M]

The size of the preboil as it relates to the finished batch size is what determines the amount of efficiency lost. Since you're starting with 1/2 gallon OVER your finished batch size, the efficiency impact is very minimal. I assumed you were boiling 3 gallons for a 5 gallon batch or worse.

 

[captainL]

I have only done 2 AG but....I always top off with about .5 gallons of ice cold water. When I start the mash I throw a couple 1.5 L bottles of spring water in the freezer. I start with 7 gallons of water (BIAB and 60 minute boil), I am always a little less than 5 gallons in the end. But I actually add the water to hit the targeted OG although I have been within .003 every time. I mainly do it to help cool it down due to my lack of a wort chiller. This combined with an ice bath I can get it down to 70 within 20 to 30 minutes. I don't see any harm in small top off like that. But I guess technically I could get a little more eff by rinsing the grains with that additional .5 gallons. I'll sacrifice that to the beer gods.

 

[cadarnell]

I have only done 2 AG but....I always top off with about .5 gallons of ice cold water. When I start the mash I throw a couple 1.5 L bottles of spring water in the freezer. I start with 7 gallons of water (BIAB and 60 minute boil), I am always a little less than 5 gallons in the end. But I actually add the water to hit the targeted OG although I have been within .003 every time. I mainly do it to help cool it down due to my lack of a wort chiller. This combined with an ice bath I can get it down to 70 within 20 to 30 minutes. I don't see any harm in small top off like that. But I guess technically I could get a little more eff by rinsing the grains with that additional .5 gallons. I'll sacrifice that to the beer gods.

ok .. i see how i could save money doing a full boil now ... you'll have to excuse my ignorance bobby ... so if the water that i normally top off with was actually put thu my cooler and got a little more sugar, my eff. would go up a little, and I could adjust my grain down a little to hit my OG .. is that what you were saying? .. i think i get it .. anyway, i am happy with what Im spending to make beer, but spending less is always nice I guess ... I'll report back to this thread after I have my next beer all carbed up and let you all know what I think ... Im going to boil 3 1/2 gals. down to 2 1/2 and then top back to 4 .. it will be a cream ale .. cheers all and thanks for all the opinions

 

[Yooper]

ok .. i see how i could save money doing a full boil now ... you'll have to excuse my ignorance bobby ... so if the water that i normally top off with was actually put thu my cooler and got a little more sugar, my eff. would go up a little, and I could adjust my grain down a little to hit my OG .. is that what you were saying? .. i think i get it .. anyway, i am happy with what Im spending to make beer, but spending less is always nice I guess ... I'll report back to this thread after I have my next beer all carbed up and let you all know what I think ... Im going to boil 3 1/2 gals. down to 2 1/2 and then top back to 4 .. it will be a cream ale .. cheers all and thanks for all the opinions

Yes, that's what we're saying. BUT you're not talking about a ton of top off water, and if it's built into the recipe it should be fine. Starting with 3.5 gallons and ending up with 4 gallons won't be a huge efficiency loss.

At first, I thought you were talking about boiling a partial boil, like with many extract brewers, starting with 2.5 gallons and bring up to 5. That would definitely be inefficient as well as mess up any hopping schedule. But adding a bit of water in your case won't be so bad. Maybe you'll need an extra pound of grain or so in the mash- not a real big deal.

 

[cadarnell]

Yes, that's what we're saying. BUT you're not talking about a ton of top off water, and if it's built into the recipe it should be fine. Starting with 3.5 gallons and ending up with 4 gallons won't be a huge efficiency loss.

At first, I thought you were talking about boiling a partial boil, like with many extract brewers, starting with 2.5 gallons and bring up to 5. That would definitely be inefficient as well as mess up any hopping schedule. But adding a bit of water in your case won't be so bad. Maybe you'll need an extra pound of grain or so in the mash- not a real big deal.

cool ... so what I have gathered from this conversation is that it IS ok to top off some to help get my boil going faster (I do it on the kit gas stove) and get my wort cooled faster (I put it in two pots and an ice bath) .. BUT it's just not the best way to make beer. I can live with that ... once I've been doing this longer I'll probably enter some contests, and I will probably get a chiller by then, and do it full boil .. but for the stuff me and the wife and friends drink .. I'll probably just keep doing it this way .. once again thanks all

 

[MyMistake]

It seems like every batch I brew ends up at least a little short. I have a 7.5 gallon brew pot for 5 gallon batches, start with 6.5 gallons, use an immersion chiller, and siphon out. It doesn't seem to matter if I use my propane burner or boil on the stove. I need to investigate where it all goes. I think I leave a couple pints of gunk in the bottom of the kettle and more in the hop bag.
Anyway, by the time I rack it to my carboy, I'm usually left with about 4 or 4.5 gallons. I top off to 5 or 5.25. I don't know how I'm loosing 2 gallons with my setup and a 1 hour boil, but there it is.
I'm sure it affects my efficiency, but that is still cheaper than upgrading my kettle. For now...

 

[cadarnell]

well ... I only topped off my cream ale with .75 gallons of water ... because I used the biab w/ sparge method and I squeezed the bag ... as I have learned I can ... so I didn't loose a gallon to the grain as I have done in the past and I ended up with more wort than the 3 1/2 I said I wanted to start with ... so this batch won't be a good test to see how if topping off with 1 1/2 gallons will be any different than topping with only 3/4 to a gallon ... I still give a report to this thread though ... I can tell you're all just waiting to hear about my beer ... not !!! ... haha ... good brewing folks ... cheers !!

 

[DB_Cooper]

I just did my third ag, and I've had to top off all 3. I'm trying to do full boils, but apparently having more boiloff than Beersmith thinks. My deadspace calc is good so I'm just going to keep bumping the boiloff % til I'm good. I keep a pretty vigorous boil going, so that's probably it.

 

[TheMan]

Bobby and Yooper have said it right. Your losses and the "extra money needed" are minimal since you are only topping up so little. You are hardly diluting it at all.

I've recently been experimenting with this very topic. For over a year I was doing full boil AG batches, made some very good beers. But I decided I was going through too much propane plus my apartment includes gas in my rent, so why not try out doing a smaller batch and topping up (with free heating). I have done a few 4.5 gallon batches topped up from 4 to 5 gallons after the boil and not noticed any detrimental effects to any batch. In fact the few that are ready now are wonderful beers. I will need more batches using this method to know for sure if it provides lesser beer, but from what I taste so far there have been no quality differences.

Beer is mostly water after all...

 

[cadarnell]

i just realized i didnt report back on my cream ale here yet .. well its almost gone now and me and the wife have really loved it .. it was jamils recipe .. very good indeed and topping off didnt have any bad effects that we tasted at all .. cheers !!

 

[redman67]

does anyone know?

If you are using beersmith and are entering your top off water in the program will it take into account the lost efficiancy and hop utilization
i.e. Will the anticipated O.G. and IBU's be accurate or not