Top fermenting yeast identification.

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BrewingWisdom

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Is there is any way to spot a yeast type in the fermenter during a fermentation like whether it's a top fermenting yeast or a bottom fermenting yeast? Currently I am fermenting with a top fermenting ale yeast and I've noticed that their is no dead yeast accumulating at the bottom even after 6 days of fermentation. So does the top fermenting accumulates at the top like a krausen?
 

VikeMan

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All else being equal, different yeast strains will accumulate at the bottom at different rates. It's not really a function of "top" fermenting vs. "bottom" fermenting yeasts, though lager strains (i.e. "bottom fermenting") often tend to have less krausen in the first place. But the point is that all yeast strains will eventually settle to the bottom, so little/no accumulation after 6 days doesn't by itself indicate what strain of yeast you have.
 
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BrewingWisdom

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All else being equal, different yeast strains will accumulate at the bottom at different rates. It's not really a function of "top" fermenting vs. "bottom" fermenting yeasts, though lager strains (i.e. "bottom fermenting") often tend to have less krausen in the first place. But the point is that all yeast strains will eventually settle to the bottom, so little/no accumulation after 6 days doesn't by itself indicate what strain of yeast you have.
So there is actually no visible way to tell that is it a top or bottom fermenting yeast in the fermenter during fermentation? It's just a scientific differentiation between two kinds of yeast?
 

VikeMan

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So there is actually no visible way to tell that is it a top or bottom fermenting yeast in the fermenter during fermentation? It's just a scientific differentiation between two kinds of yeast?

Well, lager strains will tend to be less "violent" (which is also related to temperature) and often produce less krausen, but I wouldn't use that as a surefire indicator. I would trust whatever the yeast pack you used said it was.

The scientific differentiation between lager strains and ales strains is genetic. I wouldn't really call the terms "bottom fermenting" and "top fermenting" scientific.
 
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BrewingWisdom

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Well then looks like if I capture some wild yeast strain there is no way to tell whether it's a ale yeast or lager yeast?
By scientific I mean the scientific means to determine the yeast type like studying yeast cells under the microscope etc
 

bracconiere

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Well then looks like if I capture some wild yeast strain there is no way to tell whether it's a ale yeast or lager yeast?
By scientific I mean the scientific means to determine the yeast type like studying yeast cells under the microscope etc


the term for yeast settling to the bottom after fermentation, is "flocculation"..not all yeast have this characteristic..or do it poorly. like baker's yeast.


how do you know your yeast is actually an ale strain?
 

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here's something....

Ale yeasts tend to stick together after budding and end up forming small stringed colonies consisting of 5-10 cells (see Figure 9). These colonies are more likely to attach to CO2 bubbles and rise into the kraeusen. Lager yeasts separate after budding and only form groups when they flocculate.

from this site...

 
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BrewingWisdom

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the term for yeast settling to the bottom after fermentation, is "flocculation"..not all yeast have this characteristic..or do it poorly. like baker's yeast.


how do you know your yeast is actually an ale strain?
In my experience the flocculation of bakers yeast is far stronger than any brewing yeast.
When I brewed with bakers yeast there was a thick layer of sediment at the bottom than a brewing yeast with a very thin layer at the bottom.
It's an ale yeast strain because that's what the manufacturer claims on the packet.
 
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BrewingWisdom

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here's something....

Ale yeasts tend to stick together after budding and end up forming small stringed colonies consisting of 5-10 cells (see Figure 9). These colonies are more likely to attach to CO2 bubbles and rise into the kraeusen. Lager yeasts separate after budding and only form groups when they flocculate.

from this site...

Again that cannot be seen with a naked eye. We are just brewers not scientists with a proper laboratory and lab equipment .
 

bracconiere

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Again that cannot be seen with a naked eye. We are just brewers not scientists with a proper laboratory and lab equipment .


it states that ale yeast make friends and clump before floccing? and lager yeast don't get along until after they're done with work? and a microscope isn't that hard core? no more so then a stir plate or something?

you've had better luck with baker's yeast then me then!
 
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BrewingWisdom

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you've had better luck with baker's yeast then me then!
Maybe it's the baker's yeast strain I used. But it gives a very strong bready flavor and aroma which I don't like. It's the most popular yeast we use here for baking.
images.jpeg-14.jpg
 
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VikeMan

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By scientific I mean the scientific means to determine the yeast type like studying yeast cells under the microscope etc

The only way to tell for sure would be genetic testing, or I suppose, by feeding it melibiose and seeing if it can utilize it (lager strains, Saccharomyces pastorianus can, and ale strains, Saccharomyces cerevisiae normally can't). I don't know anyone who can distinguish between these two species using a microscope.

Well then looks like if I capture some wild yeast strain there is no way to tell whether it's a ale yeast or lager yeast?

I think if you capture a wild strain, it's more likely to be neither, i.e. it's more likely to be a species of Brettanomyces.
 

VikeMan

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So the lambic beers are exactly what? ales or lagers?

Well, I've never heard of a lager strain (S. pastoranious) making its way into a lambic fermentation (though I suppose it's possible), so I'd call it an ale. Note that it's not just S. cerevisiae in a lambic. Normally there's also various Brettanomyces strains and strains from other yeast genera, not to mention bacteria.
 
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bracconiere

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this might be off-topic, but i wonder what bootleg beers are you trying to clone? i'm curious because of your bready comment?

edit: and saying bootleg, and risk avoidance...and how slow it is in the one forum to hide from google! :mug: maybe it'd be better for you and the guy from iran to talk there, i don't know why else it even exists....
 

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In my experience the flocculation of bakers yeast is far stronger than any brewing yeast.
What kind of brewing yeast (brand, name, strains, etc.) were they?

Maybe it's the baker's yeast strain I used. But it gives a very strong bready flavor and aroma which I don't like. It's the most popular yeast we use here for baking.
View attachment 769662

Without any yeast strain indication, it's just a generic yeast. Now baker's yeast can very well be brewers yeast, breweries produce tons of it, along with beer. Why waste it? ;)
They may use for baking whatever is commonly available.

I have noticed that my (brewing) yeasts becomes less flocculent and slower clearing with repeated repitchings (or higher generations made from starters). In baking that's never an issue, but in beer it is.

you've had better luck with baker's yeast then me then!
Exactly!
The majority of baker's yeast usually flocculates out after a few weeks, but the fermented products stay very hazy, almost forever. It takes months at near freezing temps to get it acceptably clear even with gelatin. Far slower than any Pilsners I've done.

So baker's yeasts are not just slower flocculators, they're also very slow clearing, to be more accurate?
 

bracconiere

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and i want to say, ALL yeast ferment all through the wort....ale yeast just form some brown stuff on top...but both lager and ale live all through the wort during fermentation....
 

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Most of my beers are ales, open fermented with top fermenting yeast. What you have described is a top fermenting yeast.

All yeast produce a krausen of some kind, but real "top fermenting" types climb out of the wort, then flocculate. These require rousing, by forcing the yeast back into the wort. If this isn't done, fermentation slows and the yeast cap will slowly collapse and eventually sink to leave the wort only partially attenuated.

Sam Smith.jpeg


As can be seen above, the recirculated wort is quite clear, not clouded by yeast in suspension, usual with bottom fermenting yeast. Between 48 to 72 hours fermentation will be mostly complete, rousing stopped, and the yeast harvested leaving a thin covering for protection. The wort will then be slowly cooled to cellar temperature, when most yeast in suspension drops out leaving the beer ready to be casked or kegged.

Top-cropping bottom fermenting yeasts yield relatively little compared with a real top fermenting one.
 

VikeMan

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Most of my beers are ales, open fermented with top fermenting yeast. What you have described is a top fermenting yeast.
The OP's description (i.e. a lack of yeast flocculated to the bottom after 6 days) doesn't necessarily indicate a top fermenting yeast. It indicates a yeast that is not a particularly fast flocculator.

All yeast produce a krausen of some kind, but real "top fermenting" types climb out of the wort, then flocculate. These require rousing, by forcing the yeast back into the wort. If this isn't done, fermentation slows and the yeast cap will slowly collapse and eventually sink to leave the wort only partially attenuated.
I don't know what strains you're working with, but typically, if a yeast requires rousing, I'd recommend looking at pitch rates, yeast health, yeast nutrients, ABV tolerance, etc. For most yeast strains, it is not normal for "un-roused" yeast to under-attenuate.
 
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bracconiere

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it probably just said ale...or brewer's which is why he's curious if it's a lager strain or ale?


you know reading my own post, "brewer's yeast" here in the states is a nutritional supplement? and i think denatured? and i've seen wort take off fermenting in a day, with out even adding yeast?
 

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The OP's description (i.e. a lack of yeast flocculated to the bottom after 6 days) doesn't necessarily indicate a top fermenting yeast. It indicates a yeast that is not a partivularly fast flocculator.


I don't know what strains you're working with, but typically, if a yeast requires rousing, I'd recommend looking at pitch rates, yeast health, yeast nutrients, ABV tolerance, etc. For most yeast strains, it is not normal for "un-roused" yeast to under-attenuate.
Many traditional English breweries recirculate fermenting wort to rouse yeast back into the wort. Ever heard of a Yorkshire Square? I'm pretty sure Ringwood gets recirculated during fermentation in some US breweries, too.
 

bracconiere

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Many traditional English breweries recirculate fermenting wort to rouse yeast back into the wort. Ever heard of a Yorkshire Square? I'm pretty sure Ringwood gets recirculated during fermentation in some US breweries, too.


and whats with the double decker pots? and sanke keg? just don't want flies in it? i mean at this point, just leave it in the boil kettle with the CFC running at the right temp?
 
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BrewingWisdom

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this might be off-topic, but i wonder what bootleg beers are you trying to clone? i'm curious because of your bready comment?

edit: and saying bootleg, and risk avoidance...and how slow it is in the one forum to hide from google! :mug: maybe it'd be better for you and the guy from iran to talk there, i don't know why else it even exists....
I opened this thread just out of curiosity. I just wanted to know is there any way to differentiate ale yeast and lagers yeast when it's fermenting.
And I am again lost on what you said about bootleg and risk avoidance.
What kind of brewing yeast (brand, name, strains, etc.) were they?



Without any yeast strain indication, it's just a generic yeast. Now baker's yeast can very well be brewers yeast, breweries produce tons of it, along with beer. Why waste it? ;)
They may use for baking whatever is commonly available.

I have noticed that my (brewing) yeasts becomes less flocculent and slower clearing with repeated repitchings (or higher generations made from starters). In baking that's never an issue, but in beer it is.


Exactly!
The majority of baker's yeast usually flocculates out after a few weeks, but the fermented products stay very hazy, almost forever. It takes months at near freezing temps to get it acceptably clear even with gelatin. Far slower than any Pilsners I've done.

So baker's yeasts are not just slower flocculators, they're also very slow clearing, to be more accurate?
It's called CS 31 yeast. I read about it's a yeast suitable for brewing ales and it's a top fermenting yeast.
it probably just said ale...or brewer's which is why he's curious if it's a lager strain or ale?
It's a yeast called CS31 by angels yeast. A Chinese company. Got it from China after 40 days wait. This is first time I am using a proper brewing yeast. And trying to learn how differently it behaves.
Nah, it says "instant" yeast, without a strain designation. Pretty much useless for brewing a specific style (even a wide one).
I reckon, it's "instant" yeast meant for baking.
It's Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast for baking. Its written on the back side of a packet.But Saccharomyces cerevisiae has many different strains. I am again repeating in the past whenever I brewed with it , there was a big yeast cake at the bottom. If that's what you call a flocculation. Its starts fermenting very quick after 8-9 hours at maximum. Alcohol tolerance is more than 8% like most people claim bakers yeast can, t tolerate beyond 8%.I don't have a way to measure it but as someone who tried commercial beers and wines I can make a comparison.Last time I brewed rice wine it using gluten rice and sugar it was somewhere between 10-15% abv. That thing got me high real quick , the smell and taste of alcohol was very strong. Its can convert almost sugars into alcohol I.e attenuation. The only downside is it gives a strong bread flavor , aroma and very strong alcohol taste and smell.
 

bracconiere

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so something like this?


says it's bootleg hooch yeast to me, couldn't find any "ale yeast".... so it's probably just a high ABV tolerant variety?
 
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BrewingWisdom

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so something like this?


says it's bootleg hooch yeast to me, couldn't find any "ale yeast".... so it's probably just a high ABV tolerant variety?
 

hotbeer

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I opened this thread just out of curiosity. I just wanted to know is there any way to differentiate ale yeast and lagers yeast when it's fermenting.
From my perspective the first two replies gave you the best info about your actual question.

As for going forward on using the yeasts you can obtain, it'll just have to be your experimentation. And if you do happen to get some actual wild yeast that do make a good brew, you better be ready to save it and do all the things needed to keep it healthy.

Otherwise just figure out whether the brands of yeast you can get result in different tastes for your beers and if one is better overall. But you probably want to do small batches till you figure that out.

What everything else was beyond your reply to post 4, I have no idea. I've been interested in your thread from the first moment you posted it. But most of the background conversation is useless.
 
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BrewingWisdom

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Most of my beers are ales, open fermented with top fermenting yeast. What you have described is a top fermenting yeast.

All yeast produce a krausen of some kind, but real "top fermenting" types climb out of the wort, then flocculate. These require rousing, by forcing the yeast back into the wort. If this isn't done, fermentation slows and the yeast cap will slowly collapse and eventually sink to leave the wort only partially attenuated.

View attachment 769672

As can be seen above, the recirculated wort is quite clear, not clouded by yeast in suspension, usual with bottom fermenting yeast. Between 48 to 72 hours fermentation will be mostly complete, rousing stopped, and the yeast harvested leaving a thin covering for protection. The wort will then be slowly cooled to cellar temperature, when most yeast in suspension drops out leaving the beer ready to be casked or kegged.

Top-cropping bottom fermenting yeasts yield relatively little compared with a real top fermenting one.
Holy crap are you going to drink that alone or you are a commercial brewer? Otherwise it doesn't makes sense to brew that much at home.
Or you are some 10 feet tall big foot 😂
 
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