Too dangerous? Wort canning without pressure cooker...

[hotwatermusic]

In brief, my process-
+draw an extra Liter of wort.
+reach boil, pass hot break, pull Liter into concurrently-boiled mason jar and cap. Then add hops, start timer, etc.
+let jar self seal and throw it in the fridge.
+a week or two later for my next brew day I water it down to 1.030-1.040 and boil again in my erlenmeyer, chill and pitch yeast for starter.

I am thinking the double boil should do enough to prevent botulism, however I know I could go to the extra level of adding a couple mils of lactic to drive the ph down into safe range to inhibit or at least further reduce bacterial growth.
I know I will be advised to buy a pressure cooker. Thanks. Appreciated. I just don't want to kill my friends and family in the mean time and I'm wondering if I have just been lucky thus far or if the above process is reasonably sound. I recently ran across some threads that gave me pause to refle... uh, crap myself.

 

[JonM]

Save yourself lots of worry and just freeze it.

Better yet - freeze it in muffin tins, pop the little frozen wort hockey pucks out of the tin and store them in a bag in the freezer. They defrost easier that way.

 

[timdillon36]

You can go about this a few ways.

If you want to bring it to a boil before you can it that can be as easy as draining a quart or 2 form your BK when it reaches a boil and then putting the lid on and puttting it in the fridge.

But, if you plan on boiling the stored wort before making the starter and after storage the the wort can be collected directly from the MT into the jars and stored.

Using an extra pound or so of base malt you can hit your gravity and also get a few quarts for a starter from the second runnings. Or even a 2nd sparge at 1.020 reduced by half on the stove during the boil.

Bottom line is, if you boil it after you can it there should be no concern.

 

[Calder]

If you have botulism spores, the second boiling is not going to do anything for you. The Botulism spores themselves are not harmful, it is the toxins they create and they are not destroyed by boiling.

That said, just boil the wort, put into sanitized jars, and store in fridge. If you keep below 40 F, you will be fine against botulism.

I boil wort, pour the boiling wort into mason jars, cap, invert to fully sanitize, and when cool, store in fridge. You have reminded me that I have some jars in my garage I need to transfer to the fridge.

 

[Zinc_Saucier]

Pressure can or if you can't do that then can and store in the fridge, or freeze

 

[Hanso]

Ignore

 

[Zinc_Saucier]

Ignore

Misread Timdillon's post as thought he was saying to just store wort straight from the MT. After reading ALL the words, I removed my counter point

 

[WI_Wino]

If you have botulism spores, the second boiling is not going to do anything for you. The Botulism spores themselves are not harmful, it is the toxins they create and they are not destroyed by boiling.

That said, just boil the wort, put into sanitized jars, and store in fridge. If you keep below 40 F, you will be fine against botulism.

I boil wort, pour the boiling wort into mason jars, cap, invert to fully sanitize, and when cool, store in fridge. You have reminded me that I have some jars in my garage I need to transfer to the fridge.

From what I have found, the toxins are denatured via boiling:

"Botulinum toxins are large, easily denatured proteins.
Toxins exposed to sunlight are inactivated within 1 to 3
hours. They can also be inactivated by treating with 0.1%
sodium hypochlorite or 0.1 N NaOH, as well as by heating
to 80°C (176°F) for 20 minutes or to greater than 85°C
(185°F) for at least 5 minutes"

Source: http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/botulism.pdf

 

[hotwatermusic]

Wow, thanks all. That's a lot of good info and much appreciated.

 

[ArcLight]

If you have botulism spores, the second boiling is not going to do anything for you. The Botulism spores themselves are not harmful, it is the toxins they create and they are not destroyed by boiling.

I don't think that's true. Heat will denture the toxin

From the Journal of Food Science
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2621.1979.tb09110.x/abstract
Inactivation of botulinum toxins was determined in selected acid and low acid foods and buffer systems. Heating at 74°C and 79°C gave a biphasic curve when the log of the inactivation of the toxins was plotted against the time of heating. At 74°C, the time for inactivation of 103 LD50 of type A toxin per gram of an acid food such as tomato soup to no detectable toxin by mouse assay was an hr. or more. At 85°C the inactivation was very rapid and approached exponential decrease with inactivation to no detectable toxin within 5 min. In general, the toxins were more stable in acid foods such as tomato soup at pH 4.2 than in low acid foods, such as canned corn at pH 6.2. Twenty minutes at 79°C or 5 min at 85°C is recommended as the minimum heat treatment for inactivation of 103 LD50 botulinum toxins per gram of the foods tested.

 

[Homercidal]

If you're boiling it and then putting directly int he fridge and keeping it there for a few days before using, you are fine. Just be aware that this is NOT "canning", it's refrigerating.

 

[Jsamp]

Personally I just say use DME to make starters. Are you really saving enough $ to make it worthwhile? Plus the low but possible risk? If you want to use your wort how about keep doing what you do now but as soon as its cool make a slightly oversized starter. After the starter is done cold crash it, decant it to keep enough liquid to fill a sanitized pint canning jar, and pitch that on brew day?

 

[Yooper]

The easiest, and safest, thing to do if you're not pressure canning the wort is to simply draw it off, boil it for a few minutes, cool it and freeze it.

When you go to use it, boil for a minute or two, and then cool it and use it.

I've done that- froze leftover wort in plastic 2 quart pitchers. Then just thawed, boiled, cooled, and used. It works fine.

Otherwise, to store wort for more than a few days in the fridge or frozen for longer, it needs to be pressure canned.

 

[hotwatermusic]

Personally I just say use DME to make starters. Are you really saving enough $ to make it worthwhile? Plus the low but possible risk? If you want to use your wort how about keep doing what you do now but as soon as its cool make a slightly oversized starter. After the starter is done cold crash it, decant it to keep enough liquid to fill a sanitized pint canning jar, and pitch that on brew day?

We have a winner! Check's in the mail. Elegant and efficient.

 

[barnaclebob]

If you have botulism spores, the second boiling is not going to do anything for you. The Botulism spores themselves are not harmful, it is the toxins they create and they are not destroyed by boiling.

You have the backwards, the spores are not destroyed by boiling (hence the need for pressure canning) but the toxin is destroyed by boiling. However the OP is fine because he refridgerated his wort.

 

[Queequeg]

If you had botulinum toxin build up you shouldn't worry about killing your friends and family as the toxin will probably kill you when you open a contaminated jar.

Boiling and then storing cool with prevent any issues. If your really worried you can acidify the wort too.

 

[Queequeg]

I don't think that's true. Heat will denture the toxin

From the Journal of Food Science
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2621.1979.tb09110.x/abstract
Inactivation of botulinum toxins was determined in selected acid and low acid foods and buffer systems. Heating at 74°C and 79°C gave a biphasic curve when the log of the inactivation of the toxins was plotted against the time of heating. At 74°C, the time for inactivation of 103 LD50 of type A toxin per gram of an acid food such as tomato soup to no detectable toxin by mouse assay was an hr. or more. At 85°C the inactivation was very rapid and approached exponential decrease with inactivation to no detectable toxin within 5 min. In general, the toxins were more stable in acid foods such as tomato soup at pH 4.2 than in low acid foods, such as canned corn at pH 6.2. Twenty minutes at 79°C or 5 min at 85°C is recommended as the minimum heat treatment for inactivation of 103 LD50 botulinum toxins per gram of the foods tested.

The spores would survive boiling, they then would vegetate at room temperature and produce the toxin. The ld50 is so low with botulinum that you can't rely on boiling, the chances are if there was a significant culture in the wort the pouring action when dispensing to the kettle would be enough to create an aerosol and kill you.

 

[LKABrewer]

If you have to bring it to a boil before pitching the yeast, then you might as well make it fresh from DME. The main advantage of pressure canning DME is that you can store it at room temperature. Sanitize, pour into flask, and pitch yeast. It takes 5 minutes to make a yeast starter.

 

[hotwatermusic]

Sooooooo....
Finally got the pressure cooker. However, first batch ended up looking like this. Please tell me I did something wrong and this isn't what I was waiting for. The hot break is ridiculous, the amount of chalk that precipitated out is frightening, and some of the lids bent outwards from the pressure within.
I also see some small bubbles inside when I agitate the liquid. Doesn't that indicate some kind of compromise of the contents? I like my OLD method, mortal danger and all.

View attachment 1462770869602.jpg

 

[LKABrewer]

Did you tighten the lids before you boiled? They need to be somewhat loose in the boil to off gas.

 

[JonM]

Mine usually look a lot like that. Tons of goopy looking hot break, and mineral deposits on the outside. Looks fine to me.

ETA: And if the lids bent outwards, that means you didn't get a good seal and you should either re-cook them right away with a different lid, or toss them. Leave them at room temp for a couple days too. If lids start coming unsealed, dump the ones that come unsealed.

 

[hotwatermusic]

Thanks. I did not allow pressure to escape, I cinched them down pretty good, I'll make note for next time. They all seem to have sealed properly. I'm a little less panicked to know that wasn't an out of the ordinary out come. I'll be testing the results soon enough.

 

[Tartan1]

Thanks. I did not allow pressure to escape, I cinched them down pretty good, I'll make note for next time. They all seem to have sealed properly. I'm a little less panicked to know that wasn't an out of the ordinary out come. I'll be testing the results soon enough.

Next time around leave a bit more headspace since there appears to be none looking at the picture. Fill to about the shoulder of the jar but no more and don't tighten lids too tight as mentioned they need to allow for expansion of the contents. Otherwise too full a jar will cause the liquid/contents to blow out between the lid and the jar thus compromising the seal later.

 

[Homercidal]

Yep, tighten ring down just to touching. Once the jars are out of the cooker you can crank them down and they will seal well.

Also, I've heard it said that using a lid more than once will lower the odds of it sealing.

 

[kombat]

Finally got the pressure cooker.

Pressure cooker, or pressure canner? They are not the same thing. Pressure cookers only get up to around 12 psi, or around 235° F, which is insufficient to thoroughly sterilize the contents. Pressure canners operate at 15 psi, which works out to a little over 250° F, which is the temperature necessary for complete sterilization.

The break material in your photos looks normal, but I'd be leery about contamination. As mentioned, you must not screw the rings down tightly during canning - they should only serve to hold the lids in place, but allow hot gases to escape the jars. After canning, the lids should seal, and "pop" inwards indicating a successful vacuum seal was formed. After they've cooled, the screw-on rings should be removed entirely, as the vacuum and the sealing compound around the rims of the lids themselves are adequate to maintain a seal.

Indeed, screwing the lids down tightly after canning is dangerous. If something inside the jar survived the canning process and begins chowing down on sugars and producing CO2, you want the lid to pop up in order to a) visually indicate that the jar is contaminated and should not be used, and b) allow the gas to escape harmlessly, rather than building pressure in the jar until it ultimately explodes.

Here's a great article on the whole process.

 

[kombat]

Yep, tighten ring down just to touching. Once the jars are out of the cooker you can crank them down and they will seal well.

Sure, go ahead and tighten the rings down as they're removed from the canner, but after the jars have cooled down and the lids have "sucked" inward, the rings should be removed entirely, as described in my previous post.

Also, I've heard it said that using a lid more than once will lower the odds of it sealing.

This is true - the lids are intended to be single-use only. Their rims are lined with a sealing compound that is activated at the high temperatures of canning. It forms a seal the first time it's used, but after that, the sealing compound has already been used and formed to whatever jar it was on. Besides, my lids get deformed when I pop the jar open anyway (I use a bottle opener), and the undersides are covered in trub from the boiling wort. Lids are cheap, and should be considered single-use and disposable.

 

[Homercidal]

Sure, go ahead and tighten the rings down as they're removed from the canner, but after the jars have cooled down and the lids have "sucked" inward, the rings should be removed entirely, as described in my previous post.



This is true - the lids are intended to be single-use only. Their rims are lined with a sealing compound that is activated at the high temperatures of canning. It forms a seal the first time it's used, but after that, the sealing compound has already been used and formed to whatever jar it was on. Besides, my lids get deformed when I pop the jar open anyway (I use a bottle opener), and the undersides are covered in trub from the boiling wort. Lids are cheap, and should be considered single-use and disposable.

Yes, the rings are only a tool for holding the lids until sealing.

I keep some spare used lids for this or that, but never for canning again. If I need a lid to use when shaking up something in a jar, or for refrigerating, I grab a used one. For canning it's always brand new in the box lids.