To secondary or not to secondary...

[FletusSanguine]

So, quick question, looking for a bit of information, and a bit of advice. Doing my second brew, a vanilla bourbon stout from boomchugalug, extract. I'm a few days into primary right now, and things are going along well. I've got my chopped up vanilla beans hanging out in my bourbon right now, getting acquainted with one another, and I'll be adding them once I hit FG, in about 2 weeks hopefully.

My plan, in my head, is actually to just leave the beer in the primary so I don't risk any more oxidation than I need to, and to just drop the bourbon-vanilla mixture into the primary, rather than racking over to secondary. However, I'm active duty military and will be going TDY for approximately a month afterwards. What, if any, would be the negative side effects of adding to primary and just letting the bourbon and vanilla sit on the trub for about 4 weeks, and will the trub make it more difficult for the vanilla flavor to make it into the final product?

 

[SudsyPaul]

4 weeks on the cake is no biggy. I've had beers for 6-8 weeks and they tasted stellar.

I don't secondary unless I let the beer sit for a long time (3-6 months) or if I'm adding weird stuff that I don't want to completely ferment out.

 

[LLBeanJ]

I don't think there is any issue with doing what you have described, though, when I add vanilla and hard liquor, I wait until it's time to package and add it then. I keg, so I just add it to the keg, but if I were bottling, I'd add it to the bottling bucket. Also, I filter out the solids from the vanilla beans and just add the liquid extract.

 

[EVILsteve]

Just dropping them into the primary would work just fine. Personally I wouldn't bother waiting till a specific FG, once there's little to no active fermentation in the airlock I would drop them in. Ive never noticed a strong flavour from vanilla beans so the earlier the better imo. Only thing to watch out for is sometimes adding things shortly after the kraisen has settled will send it back into action for a couple hours.

As for the worry of risking oxidation during racking to secondary. that's nothing to be concerned about unless your racking from a 6.5 to a 5 gallon carboy and leaving all that headspace long after the fermentation has settled for an extended secondary with no hope of filling that void with CO2. There's many good reasons to skip the secondary but risk of oxidation from racking really isn't one of them if normal brewing techniques are generally followed.

good luck with your brew.

 

[j1n]

So 6 weeks in the primary..... that's kind of long.... ive never had my beer on the yeast cake that long. I hear you get a yeasty flavor if you leave it on the cake too long. i wouldn't know since my beers never go more than 14 days in the primary. If you keg then i would just add it to the keg along with the beer @ 2 weeks. If you bottle then bottle at this time and add the bourbon with vanilla to the bottle bucket with priming sugar and mix gently before bottling.

 

[FletusSanguine]

Appreciate the help and information, guys. As to adding the vanilla and bourbon to the bottling bucket just prior to bottling rather than secondary, any particular reason why? Or is it just a matter of your personal preference?

 

[LLBeanJ]

As I've written on this forum many times, I will do whatever I can to avoid having to use a secondary. I want to make the best beer I can, but I also want to avoid doing things that a) seem to be a waste of time and effort or b) have the potential (even if slight) to harm my beer. Based on my own experience and with the understanding that others may not necessarily agree, I see no benefit to using a secondary if no additional fermentables are being added, and even then, adding them to primary will usually work just as well. Also, based on anecdotal evidence, it seems to me that most of the time when someone on here posts that their beer is infected, more often than not, it's after it was transferred to secondary for clearing. My goal is to transfer one time if I can (and in most cases, I can) without compromising the quality of my brew.

So, when I have a recipe that requires unusual additions, the first thing I consider is: Can the addition be made in primary or at bottling? If so, then which makes the most sense? Hard liquor is just liquid and length of exposure to the beer has no compounding effect on flavor. If anything, the flavor may fade over time. Add it at packaging and call it good. Vanilla is a bit different, but with a few weeks soaking in vodka, rum, whisky, or some other hard liquor, pretty much all the flavor will be extracted. I also don't want all the floaties from the vanilla solids in my beer, so I filter them out using a coffee filter or paper towel, and since the remaining extract also will not have any compounding effect on flavor over time, it too can be added at bottling. Mission accomplished - desired flavor achieved without using a secondary.

That's my reasoning. YMMV

 

[j1n]

Appreciate the help and information, guys. As to adding the vanilla and bourbon to the bottling bucket just prior to bottling rather than secondary, any particular reason why? Or is it just a matter of your personal preference?

What LLBeanJ said.

 

[kh54s10]

So 6 weeks in the primary..... that's kind of long.... ive never had my beer on the yeast cake that long. I hear you get a yeasty flavor if you leave it on the cake too long. i wouldn't know since my beers never go more than 14 days in the primary. If you keg then i would just add it to the keg along with the beer @ 2 weeks. If you bottle then bottle at this time and add the bourbon with vanilla to the bottle bucket with priming sugar and mix gently before bottling.

I have left quite a few on the yeast for 6 weeks or longer, mostly due to laziness, I have not been able to detect any difference from those that were off the yeast in 2 weeks.

I too would add the vanilla at packaging time.

Though my current porter got a coffee mixture added to primary after a 1 1/2 months and has been sitting on the cake for 3 months. We'll see. I will be kegging it today.

 

[j1n]

I have left quite a few on the yeast for 6 weeks or longer, mostly due to laziness, I have not been able to detect any difference from those that were off the yeast in 2 weeks.

I too would add the vanilla at packaging time.

Though my current porter got a coffee mixture added to primary after a 1 1/2 months and has been sitting on the cake for 3 months. We'll see. I will be kegging it today.

Well my point was more that its unnecessary to secondary for 4 weeks or extend the primary for 4 weeks. He could just bottle @ 2 weeks and then go TDY and he will have beer ready to drink when he gets back.

I have never gone past 2 weeks with fermentation so i wouldn't know about the yeast taste. Its just what i've heard many times on the forum by experienced members.

 

[kh54s10]

Well my point was more that its unnecessary to secondary for 4 weeks or extend the primary for 4 weeks. He could just bottle @ 2 weeks and then go TDY and he will have beer ready to drink when he gets back.

I have never gone past 2 weeks with fermentation so i wouldn't know about the yeast taste. Its just what i've heard many times on the forum by experienced members.

I agree that it could be bottled before the TDY.

I was giving my opinion that leaving the beer on the yeast longer hasn't been a problem for me. I guess it depends on how long. Many never take the beer off the yeast in less than a month. I have 2 weeks and up to 3 months in primary and have not detected a problem. The Porter I mentioned is about the longest so I will have to see....

 

[FletusSanguine]

As I've written on this forum many times, I will do whatever I can to avoid having to use a secondary. I want to make the best beer I can, but I also want to avoid doing things that a) seem to be a waste of time and effort or b) have the potential (even if slight) to harm my beer. Based on my own experience and with the understanding that others may not necessarily agree, I see no benefit to using a secondary if no additional fermentables are being added, and even then, adding them to primary will usually work just as well. Also, based on anecdotal evidence, it seems to me that most of the time when someone on here posts that their beer is infected, more often than not, it's after it was transferred to secondary for clearing. My goal is to transfer one time if I can (and in most cases, I can) without compromising the quality of my brew.

So, when I have a recipe that requires unusual additions, the first thing I consider is: Can the addition be made in primary or at bottling? If so, then which makes the most sense? Hard liquor is just liquid and length of exposure to the beer has no compounding effect on flavor. If anything, the flavor may fade over time. Add it at packaging and call it good. Vanilla is a bit different, but with a few weeks soaking in vodka, rum, whisky, or some other hard liquor, pretty much all the flavor will be extracted. I also don't want all the floaties from the vanilla solids in my beer, so I filter them out using a coffee filter or paper towel, and since the remaining extract also will not have any compounding effect on flavor over time, it too can be added at bottling. Mission accomplished - desired flavor achieved without using a secondary.

That's my reasoning. YMMV

Appreciated. My initial plan was to just add the bourbon and vanilla into primary for pretty much the reasons you stated. I don't feel the need to have extra work, or risk infection on a step that doesn't really seem necessary. It's not like I need to worry about clarity in a stout. Then in the process of reading crap about brewing I came across some discussion about adjuncts or flavorings being added to primary and the yeast producing off flavors from the additions, etc. and it got me to thinking...very likely OVER-thinking. If I do add, I'll do it in primary.

That being said, good point about the whiskey having time to pull all of the flavor of the vanilla out, and not really having any extra effect over time in terms of flavor, outside of mellowing. I'll consider this, and may just end up putting it straight to bottles and have both a RIS and some bourbon stouts to enjoy when I get from TDY.

 

[Btaz]

From what I've read, you don't want to leave the beer in a plastic bucket too long as it is a bit porous and may affect future batches. If you are in a glass carboy staying in only a primary is just fine. The longest I've stayed in a plastic bucket was for 6 weeks with a wheat beer and didn't notice any coloration or odors after I cleaned it out and didn't detect any flavors in my next batch. With a strong stout like yours I could see where a bucket might be a problem. I also like to move to a secondary as it provides another filtering step before I bottle, but like you mention a stout doesn't need to be super clear. Also, a long cold crash prior to bottling will do a good job clearing up the beer.

 

[j1n]

From what I've read, you don't want to leave the beer in a plastic bucket too long as it is a bit porous and may affect future batches. If you are in a glass carboy staying in only a primary is just fine. The longest I've stayed in a plastic bucket was for 6 weeks with a wheat beer and didn't notice any coloration or odors after I cleaned it out and didn't detect any flavors in my next batch. With a strong stout like yours I could see where a bucket might be a problem. I also like to move to a secondary as it provides another filtering step before I bottle, but like you mention a stout doesn't need to be super clear. Also, a long cold crash prior to bottling will do a good job clearing up the beer.

i disagree. Plastic is fine. Glass is best for a long secondary since it isn't o2 permeable and plastic is. Long primary is completely unnecessary so no need to keep it in there for 6 weeks. and if he did it wouldn't matter what type of vessel it was in.