Time to get serious about meads, got a few questions before I start

[humann_brewing]

So I have Ken Schramms book on my doorstep, I have also read his 2005 article in zymurgy and discussed with others on various practices.

Here are my questions at this point, I am sure there will be more though

Ken talked about not letting the pH go to low to slow the fermentation down and just cause unhappy yeast in general. He never mentioned what pH though, so what is an optimal pH to stay above?

I was talking to Gordon Strong and he was saying do some sampling for flavor combos but I didn't really hear the part on how to do this. How would you sample flavor combinations with unfermented must?

Ken also talks about keeping the potassium levels above 300ppm and for the home meader that potassium bitartrate or potassium phosphate are good options unless you can get your hands on potassium hydroxide. So where you you find these? I can't seem to find them on the typical brew sites.

 

[jvanwest]

Ken is super cool. He had a great couple of sessions as NHC. Check out the mead forum on Facebook as he usually is on there too.

 

[jvanwest]

Also, this month's Zymurgy magazine had quite a bit on mead in it. Quite a wonderful bit of reading.

 

[humann_brewing]

thank you I will check that out. Not sure where I put the latest issue, I know I just got a BYO but when did the zymurgy come out?

 

[retty]

Hey there, first post here. I just started mead making this year myself and have read Ken's book. It's very good for getting an idea of the process and possibilities. Try reading pH management on page 56. He suggests a pH below 3.0 is bad for yeast, so you have to aim above that with some room (yeast will make must more acidic while fermenting). Book has more details than just that, but I'll let you check it out. Some of the items are briefly mentioned in the beginning but are mentioned more thoroughly later on.

I don't have answers for your second and third questions though. Hopefully someone else chimes in. I can guess sample flavor combos means making mead then adding extracts in small quantities before testing adding to the whole batch.

 

[humann_brewing]

Hey there, first post here. I just started mead making this year myself and have read Ken's book. It's very good for getting an idea of the process and possibilities. Try reading pH management on page 56. He suggests a pH below 3.0 is bad for yeast, so you have to aim above that with some room (yeast will make must more acidic while fermenting). Book has more details than just that, but I'll let you check it out. Some of the items are briefly mentioned in the beginning but are mentioned more thoroughly later on.

I don't have answers for your second and third questions though. Hopefully someone else chimes in. I can guess sample flavor combos means making mead then adding extracts in small quantities before testing adding to the whole batch.

that would make sense with a tinture mixture,that is probably it.

 

[jvanwest]

Another thought on the PH level - Five Star (makers of StarSan) have a product called 5.2 which stabilizes your water to a 5.2 PH level. This is great for beermaking and the rep also said it was great for mead.

FWIW

 

[wreals]

Yeah I have the some of the same questions. After discovering that mead is amazing, at the NHC, now I want to make it.

 

[MedsenFey]

The yeast start feeling pH stress once it goes below about 3.4, and as the pH drops lower, the need for potassium goes way up above 300 ppm in order for the yeast to be able to maintain electrochemical balance against the H+ ions in solution. Many yeast can continue to function and ferment successfully down to around 3.0, and in wine studies they have found the lower limit to be around 2.8 before the yeast quit. In meads, the yeast seem to suffer stalls at a higher level, and having less potassium in honey musts (compared to grape musts) might account for that.

Generally speaking, if you are keeping the pH in a reasonably healthy range, and are adding yeast energizers that contain autolyzed yeast (like Fermaid K), you don't have to worry about adding extra potassium as there will be plenty. Also, when adjusting pH, using potassium bicarbonate (or carbonate) is preferred over calcium carbonate because it does provide extra potassium.

If you do want to add potassium bitartrate, it is readily available at the super market in the spice/baking section. It is called cream of tartar. There are potassium phosphate nutritional supplements as well, though I can't imagine needing to use one in my meads. I have used cream of tartar a number of times. It adds some acid flavor in addition to providing some buffering capacity to prevent/reduce massive pH drops. In his book on mead, Roger Morse suggested using 4 grams per gallon of cream of tartar as a routine addition to traditional meads.

I hope that helps

Medsen

Edit - A ph of 5.2 is not what you want for meads. Ideally you'd like to keep the pH between 3.4-4.0, and the lower it is, the easier it is to prevent spoilage organisms.

 

[Bru]

While we're on the topic of mead can someone please advise the honey to water ratio for :
dry mead
sweet mead
Also, please confirm that the yeast has an effect : ale yeast for sweet, champagn yeast for dry.
A ratio in volume (instead of honey in pounds) would be easier to work with.
I hope that makes sense

 

[MedsenFey]

Bru, dry or sweet will be determined by the alcohol tolerance of the yeast, and the potential alcohol of the must (its sugar content expressed as gravity). Working is volumes is unpredictable because the water content of honey varies. Working with weight is also variable. In order to be consistent, you can use rough estimates for weight/volume, but plan on fine tuning it by taking a gravity reading with a hydrometer.

If you use an ale yeast with an alcohol tolerance of 10%, and you start with a must that has 13% potential alcohol (gravity about 1.096), the yeast are going to stop somewhere around 10% and leave you with a very sweet result (probably a final gravity around 1.020). If you take that same must and pitch a Champagne yeast with 18% alcohol tolerance, it should chew up every bit of the sugar and leave you with a bone dry mead that has a gravity less than 0.999. So whether you end dry or sweet depends on how much sugar you start with, and how much your yeast will eat.

Planning your recipes using a hydrometer will give you the best chances of getting what you want, with the ABV and amount of sweetness you prefer.

 

[Bru]

Thanks for the reply.
To clarify - use enough honey for about 1.096 for dry or sweet but use a different yeast?
Can you give me a ball park figure of how much honey to use for a final volume of about 5 gallons (I will be sure to verify with hydrometer). From what Ive read its around 14 pounds of honey.

 

[MedsenFey]

Thanks for the reply.
To clarify - use enough honey for about 1.096 for dry or sweet but use a different yeast?

That was just an example.
In that example, if you used that gravity and used the ale yeast, you end up with a 10% ABV sweet mead. If you use the Champagne yeast, you end up with a dry, 13% ABV mead.

Those numbers change if you use different yeast and starting points. As a second example, say you start with a must that has 16% potential alcohol (gravity about 1.117). If you pitch a yeast that has 14% ABV tolerance (like D47 or 71B) you end up with a 14% ABV sweet batch with a gravity around 1.010. If you pitch the 18% ABV Champagne yeast, you get a 16% ABV bone dry mead with a gravity of 0.999 or less. In this example you wind up with a lot more alcohol whether you keep it sweet or dry.

I'm not trying to make this confusing (though I know it can be). There is no one amount of honey for sweet or dry. You can make sweet or dry with various amounts of honey depending on how much alcohol you want.

If you are just starting out, and aren't sure where you want it. My suggestion would be to target making a batch with about 13% ABV which is very wine-like, and then plan to let it go dry. You can then stabilize and sweeten it get the level of sweetness you like best. What I would suggest is using roughly 14 pounds of honey in a 5 gallon batch (a bit more of less to get the gravity at about 1.100). Then use a yeast like 71B, and provide nutrients and aeration and let it ferment to completion which should leave you with a dry 13% ABV mead. If, after it clears, you find you want to make it sweet, you can do that at that time.

Medsen

 

[Bru]

Good info - thanks !

 

[humann_brewing]

The yeast start feeling pH stress once it goes below about 3.4, and as the pH drops lower, the need for potassium goes way up above 300 ppm in order for the yeast to be able to maintain electrochemical balance against the H+ ions in solution. Many yeast can continue to function and ferment successfully down to around 3.0, and in wine studies they have found the lower limit to be around 2.8 before the yeast quit. In meads, the yeast seem to suffer stalls at a higher level, and having less potassium in honey musts (compared to grape musts) might account for that.

Generally speaking, if you are keeping the pH in a reasonably healthy range, and are adding yeast energizers that contain autolyzed yeast (like Fermaid K), you don't have to worry about adding extra potassium as there will be plenty. Also, when adjusting pH, using potassium bicarbonate (or carbonate) is preferred over calcium carbonate because it does provide extra potassium.

If you do want to add potassium bitartrate, it is readily available at the super market in the spice/baking section. It is called cream of tartar. There are potassium phosphate nutritional supplements as well, though I can't imagine needing to use one in my meads. I have used cream of tartar a number of times. It adds some acid flavor in addition to providing some buffering capacity to prevent/reduce massive pH drops. In his book on mead, Roger Morse suggested using 4 grams per gallon of cream of tartar as a routine addition to traditional meads.

I hope that helps

Medsen

Edit - A ph of 5.2 is not what you want for meads. Ideally you'd like to keep the pH between 3.4-4.0, and the lower it is, the easier it is to prevent spoilage organisms.

great info, thanks, so adding potassium is the best way to raise the pH if it is getting to close to 3?

and you say, that Roger suggests 4g/G for tradiotional meads, would this be different for Melomel or Metheglin meads?

 

[MedsenFey]

great info, thanks, so adding potassium is the best way to raise the pH if it is getting to close to 3?

and you say, that Roger suggests 4g/G for traditional meads, would this be different for Melomel or Metheglin meads?

Potassium doesn't raise the pH. In fact, excess potassium actually causes the pH to drop further. The bicarbonate is what raises the pH. The potassium with the bicarbonate helps the yeast tolerate low pH better. Potassium bicarbonate is also easy to dissolve in water. For these reasons, I prefer potassium bicarbonate over calcium carbonate.

In the case of cream of tartar, the tartrate ions tend to buffer the solution and keep the pH higher, but they won't have nearly as much impact as potassium bicarbonate when it comes to raising pH. At the dose recommended by Roger Morse, it will help lessen the dramatic pH drop, but if you try to add large amounts, you may find it precipitating out later in your bottles like wine diamonds. Tartaric acid (which the tartrate becomes in the low pH liquid) will also have a flavor impact that bicarbonate will not.

Melomels usually don't have the same pH problems as traditionals unless you are using small amounts of fruit, or unless you are using very acidic fruit (lemons, sour oranges, currants, etc.). With most melomels the fruit/juice provides enough buffering capacity that the pH remains fairly stable. Metheglyns are more like traditional meads in most cases, and tend to have the same pH issues.

 

[humann_brewing]

Potassium doesn't raise the pH. In fact, excess potassium actually causes the pH to drop further. The bicarbonate is what raises the pH. The potassium with the bicarbonate helps the yeast tolerate low pH better. Potassium bicarbonate is also easy to dissolve in water. For these reasons, I prefer potassium bicarbonate over calcium carbonate.

In the case of cream of tartar, the tartrate ions tend to buffer the solution and keep the pH higher, but they won't have nearly as much impact as potassium bicarbonate when it comes to raising pH. At the dose recommended by Roger Morse, it will help lessen the dramatic pH drop, but if you try to add large amounts, you may find it precipitating out later in your bottles like wine diamonds. Tartaric acid (which the tartrate becomes in the low pH liquid) will also have a flavor impact that bicarbonate will not.

Melomels usually don't have the same pH problems as traditionals unless you are using small amounts of fruit, or unless you are using very acidic fruit (lemons, sour oranges, currants, etc.). With most melomels the fruit/juice provides enough buffering capacity that the pH remains fairly stable. Metheglyns are more like traditional meads in most cases, and tend to have the same pH issues.

thanks again, so where do you get your potassium bicarbonate at?

 

[MedsenFey]

I buy mine online (usually from midwest supply) because I don't have a LHBS anywhere nearby. Most LHBS will carry potassium bicarb.

 

[humann_brewing]

I buy mine online (usually from midwest supply) because I don't have a LHBS anywhere nearby. Most LHBS will carry potassium bicarb.

I better check my box of goodies. I know I bought a bunch of stuff for wine and mead a while back.

 

[humann_brewing]

Potassium doesn't raise the pH. In fact, excess potassium actually causes the pH to drop further. The bicarbonate is what raises the pH. The potassium with the bicarbonate helps the yeast tolerate low pH better. Potassium bicarbonate is also easy to dissolve in water. For these reasons, I prefer potassium bicarbonate over calcium carbonate.

In the case of cream of tartar, the tartrate ions tend to buffer the solution and keep the pH higher, but they won't have nearly as much impact as potassium bicarbonate when it comes to raising pH. At the dose recommended by Roger Morse, it will help lessen the dramatic pH drop, but if you try to add large amounts, you may find it precipitating out later in your bottles like wine diamonds. Tartaric acid (which the tartrate becomes in the low pH liquid) will also have a flavor impact that bicarbonate will not.

Melomels usually don't have the same pH problems as traditionals unless you are using small amounts of fruit, or unless you are using very acidic fruit (lemons, sour oranges, currants, etc.). With most melomels the fruit/juice provides enough buffering capacity that the pH remains fairly stable. Metheglyns are more like traditional meads in most cases, and tend to have the same pH issues.

is there a ratio of how much Potassium bicarbonate to add in order to raise the pH? like x grams per gallon to raise .1 or something?

 

[Foomoochoo]

is there a ratio of how much Potassium bicarbonate to add in order to raise the pH? like x grams per gallon to raise .1 or something?

IIRC, it is 3.5g/gallon to raise PH by .1%.

 

[MedsenFey]

Not really because the buffering capacity of each batch is different. However, for a 5-gallon batch, I usually will start with 5 grams and go up by 1 gram at a time until I get the level I want. I try really hard not to overshoot.

 

[humann_brewing]

also, what is a good starting pH when you start fermentation? I read that the fermentation lowers the pH but what is a good starting point?

 

[MedsenFey]

The starting point is almost irrelevant. Yeast can function well over a huge pH range. With a traditional mead it is common to see the pH of the must start anywhere between 4.0 and 6.0 but within 24-48, the pH can drop dramatically, sometime even below 3.0 so the important point is not where it starts, but instead, where it drops to.

 

[humann_brewing]

The starting point is almost irrelevant. Yeast can function well over a huge pH range. With a traditional mead it is common to see the pH of the must start anywhere between 4.0 and 6.0 but within 24-48, the pH can drop dramatically, sometime even below 3.0 so the important point is not where it starts, but instead, where it drops to.

make sense, thanks

 

[humann_brewing]

Finally got the mead going.

prolly have 4.5-5 gallons of 1.095 must

rehydrated 8g of 71B with 10g of goferm
oxygenated the heck out of the must pitched with 3.5g of fermaid K and 4.5 of dap
pH was 3.85

I didn't get the temp right before pitching, I kept the yeast rehydrating for a while while I tried to get the temp of the must down, even feeding the yeast from my gravity samples while I waited.

Pitched at about 73 and it was down to 62 within a few hours.

added 1g/1g of fermaid and dap 7-8 hours later

this morning, roughly 18 hours from pitching I put in another 1g/1g of fermaid and dap and oxygenated some more and pH was 4.25