Thinking about going electric...

[bigirishape]

I'm thinking about going from propane to electric, and I need help. I'm looking around at all of the threads and, to be quite honest, I'm getting overwhelmed - so I'm reaching out for some individualized feedback.

What would be the minimum requirement of hardware to go from propane to electric with my current setup?

• 2 keggles for HLT and BK (weldless fittings, sight glass, thermometer)
• 70qt Coleman cooler MT
• 40 plate CFC
• single March pump

Please keep in mind that I'd rather spend an extra $20 than have to move plugs around, so I don't mean that kind of "absolute minimum" requirement...but I also don't have hundreds of bucks to spend. I'd like to keep it simple and move indoors/electric for starters, and over time upgrade my gear to full a full HERMS/RIMS/etc setup with pots and all that jazz...

I know I will need (links provided for reference, other suggestions VERY welcome):

• 2 heating elements (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BPG4LI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)
• 2 temp sensors (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FHVBKC4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)
• Control Panel and all the guts.
• A new 240v (dryer plug) line run in my basement (correct?)

Any thoughts or feedback, or even links to other threads that may have already answered these questions would be greatly appreciated. As I said earlier, I have searched and browsed this forum, but there is a LOT of info here and I'm getting buried in the details before I even know what details I need to get buried in!

 

[augiedoggy]

I did it with $275-300 for the panel build and elements /wiring and seals.... I also put in stuff you wont need like pwm speed controllers and conncteors for the 12v pumps I use...
my setup uses three mypin pids and rtd sensors... 2 4500w elements and a sestos built in timer and alarms. a $34 home depot enclosure and $20 in relays and about $30 in alarms ,switches and lights... switchcraft, xlr and spade connectors added about $25-30 as well. I used wire from a harbor freight wire cabinet kit which cost me $40 but left me with 90% of the wire for other things...

You can spend upwards of 2 grand for the same functionality if you want bling....
Id budget about $400 to have a nice looking middle of the road build.

 

[bigirishape]

Ok, so if I go by Kal's guide and the current parts pricing, I can get:

2 heating element setups for ~$120 and 2 temp probe setups for ~$80.

His control panel is mega-pimped out IMO...and way more than I would need at the start of my foray... Any suggestions or parts list for what I could or should aim for?

I like the idea of using the XLR connectors for the temp proves and the twist-lock NEMA plugs for the heating elements, so I'm going to go with those. But with regards to the rest of the controls, I just need to monitor the two elements and probes, and on/off capabilities, right?

I'm going to try and recruit a fellow club member to help me put all of the pieces together if I'm able to go this route, I just need an idea so I can ballpark the $$ and see if it's possible now...

 

[augiedoggy]

Ok, so if I go by Kal's guide and the current parts pricing, I can get:

2 heating element setups for ~$120 and 2 temp probe setups for ~$80.

His control panel is mega-pimped out IMO...and way more than I would need at the start of my foray... Any suggestions or parts list for what I could or should aim for?

I like the idea of using the XLR connectors for the temp proves and the twist-lock NEMA plugs for the heating elements, so I'm going to go with those. But with regards to the rest of the controls, I just need to monitor the two elements and probes, and on/off capabilities, right?

I'm going to try and recruit a fellow club member to help me put all of the pieces together if I'm able to go this route, I just need an idea so I can ballpark the $$ and see if it's possible now...

kals element setups are basically homemade with stuff from homedepot...Id say about about $80-90 worth if you include both elements in your shopping spree I actually bought almost all of it before deciding on using the simple electric pvc pip coupler method filled with epoxy because it seemed more waterprrof and foolproof to me)... If you really feel your fabrication skills arent up to pare or that you need extra support he would certianly be the way to go...its all in how much you want to spend... twist lock connectors can be found cheap from stores on ebay... Thats where Kal has stated he bought stuff from himself.. its all about convenience vs saving money...ironically the same arguement many use for making beer vs buying it.
your right on your other points ... if you dont want alarms or timers you can save a few more bucks.

 

[bigirishape]

I suppose I could even just start with the heating elements, and a control panel with 3 switches and 3 40a SSR w/ Heatsink...I can check temp with my weldless thermometer and just manually cycle the power to the elements and pump as needed...

Are there going to be any downfalls of doing that, and at a later date doing the temp probes and PIDs and all the fancy bits?

 

[augiedoggy]

I suppose I could even just start with the heating elements, and a control panel with 3 switches and 3 40a SSR w/ Heatsink...I can check temp with my weldless thermometer and just manually cycle the power to the elements and pump as needed...

Are there going to be any downfalls of doing that, and at a later date doing the temp probes and PIDs and all the fancy bits?

25a ssrs havent let me down yet... but 4500w elements only use 18.2 amps 5500 use 23a
stilldragon makes a simple kit thats well worth the price if you want simple.

 

[jCOSbrew]

I suppose I could even just start with the heating elements, and a control panel with 3 switches and 3 40a SSR w/ Heatsink...I can check temp with my weldless thermometer and just manually cycle the power to the elements and pump as needed...

Are there going to be any downfalls of doing that, and at a later date doing the temp probes and PIDs and all the fancy bits?

This basic is probably similar to what you have with propane, no automation, etc. For the BK you will probably want some way to control power to the element. Search for SSVR which is basically an SSR with a potentiometer front end to control power to the element.

PIDs are cool but you can easily check the HLT temp with a thermometer.

If you want to upgrade and add more stuff to the pannel, just start with a big enclosure.

 

[hunter306]

Element Kits are priced fairly here: http://www.ebrewsupply.com/shop/ebrew-kits/elements/element-package.html

I bought 2 of these, assembled according to Kal's site and they work great. These also come with the male side of the twist lock, which is nice.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Ok, so if I go by Kal's guide and the current parts pricing, I can get:

2 heating element setups for ~$120 and 2 temp probe setups for ~$80.

His control panel is mega-pimped out IMO...and way more than I would need at the start of my foray... Any suggestions or parts list for what I could or should aim for?

I like the idea of using the XLR connectors for the temp probes and the twist-lock NEMA plugs for the heating elements, so I'm going to go with those. But with regards to the rest of the controls, I just need to monitor the two elements and probes, and on/off capabilities, right?

I'm going to try and recruit a fellow club member to help me put all of the pieces together if I'm able to go this route, I just need an idea so I can ballpark the $$ and see if it's possible now...

Hard wire all of the wires that go into the control panel, and put XLR connectors on the other ends of the temp probe wires and Neutrik Powercon connectors onto the other ends of the heating element wires.

I spent a good deal of money and time making removable connections to the wires that go to the pots and to the panel and you know what? I never unplug the wires that go to the panel. Wish I hadn't wasted all of that time and money. Live and learn.

Things I use all the time:
* Main power switch and a contactor that shuts off the power to the panel (you can use an emergency-stop mushroom button for the main power switch so it will do double duty as a main on/off and as an e-stop.)
* A PID for the BK and a separate PID for the HLT.
* Switches that allow the PIDs to be on or off when the main power is on
* Switches that allow the heating element contactors to be on or off when the main power is on
* Switches installed on my brew table near the pumps to turn the pumps off / on. I didn't originally have these installed, but I quickly figured I needed them, because it was a pain to have to mess with the pumps while the switch was more than arm length's away.
* Float switches in the pots to prevent the heating elements from firing when the water levels are too low. These float switches have saved my bacon a couple of times already when I wasn't paying attention to the water levels. I could have fried my heating elements without these.

Things I really don't use but I installed them anyway:
* An alarm for the temp controls for the PIDs. I don't spend a lot of time outside the brewery when it's operating, so...yeah...not really needed.
* Switches for the pumps on the control panel itself. Now that I have switches built into my brewing table...these aren't really needed.

Things that I never installed in the first place and don't wish I did:
* A timer. Lots of other ways to keep track of time, and hardly any of them cost $45.
* Volt / amp meter. Never saw a need for it.

Good luck!

 

[augiedoggy]

as I mentioned earlier....http://www.stilldragon.com/diy-controller.html

the ebrew element kit above can be purchased locally at lowes or home depot for about $50-60 a piece... but you actually have to drive to the store and pick the stuff out... not worth the savings to some I'm sure...

 

[kenh]

I'm thinking about going from propane to electric, and I need help. I'm looking around at all of the threads and, to be quite honest, I'm getting overwhelmed - so I'm reaching out for some individualized feedback.

What would be the minimum requirement of hardware to go from propane to electric with my current setup?

• 2 keggles for HLT and BK (weldless fittings, sight glass, thermometer)
• 70qt Coleman cooler MT
• 40 plate CFC
• single March pump

Please keep in mind that I'd rather spend an extra $20 than have to move plugs around, so I don't mean that kind of "absolute minimum" requirement...but I also don't have hundreds of bucks to spend. I'd like to keep it simple and move indoors/electric for starters, and over time upgrade my gear to full a full HERMS/RIMS/etc setup with pots and all that jazz...

I know I will need (links provided for reference, other suggestions VERY welcome):

• 2 heating elements (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BPG4LI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)
• 2 temp sensors (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FHVBKC4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)
• Control Panel and all the guts.
• A new 240v (dryer plug) line run in my basement (correct?)

Any thoughts or feedback, or even links to other threads that may have already answered these questions would be greatly appreciated. As I said earlier, I have searched and browsed this forum, but there is a LOT of info here and I'm getting buried in the details before I even know what details I need to get buried in!

I went your route almost two years ago and you are right, over 1/2 of the stuff in Kal's panel is extra fluff. Here is what I learned from doing my own panel.

You want a safety disconnect, it can be a wall mount disconnect, a GFI panel or a main on/off switch. Whatever you chose, it has to completely power off everything with one quick flip of a switch or push of a button.

Go ahead and invest in twist lock plugs for your outlets. They will save you much grief when you have to work on your setup later.

I was originally "all about" GFI breakers until my electrician brother in-law pointed out that my stove and dryer are both plugged into non-GFI outlets, both are metal and both are safe. He explained that safe wiring practices are far more important than a GFI breaker. You need to make-up your own mind about GFI but my setup does not have one.

Build a RIMS tube and re-use your GOTT cooler in your new setup. That's what I did and it works great. I followed these plans when building mine.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-your-own-portable-Stainless-Steel-RIMS-tube-/

Buy all ULWD elements. They are good for more than not scorching beer. Everyone will eventually dry fire one of their elements and a ULWD element is far more likely to survive with no damage.

Don't mount your elements in RTV or glued together PVC pipe because you will eventually need to replace them. Instead mount your elements in electrical boxes that are serviceable. I used the electrical boxes mentioned in this thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/where-can-i-find-part-457323/

Be very careful about following any advice from this site without checking with an electrician first. There is a lot a false information & dangerous advice floating around the net and homebrewtalk is no exception.

But the biggest piece of advice is if you are unsure about electricity and wiring don't wire your own panel!!! There are a lot of low cost alternatives to Kal's control panel. There is some good discussion on this thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/getting-started-electric-system-question-449968/


I got a lot of help from my brother in-law. I learned from him that 12 gauge wire is legal and safe in a brew panel. He showed me with his IR thermometer that even with my 5500 watt boil pot running wide open the 12 gauge wire in my setup does not even get warm.

 

[iijakii]

I definitely don't feel the same about twist lock plugs. They're solid bling. Maybe if you are in a very foot-heavy place with your cords strewn about I could understand a benefit. Not sure what you mean about saving grief. They're neither easier nor harder to work on.

 

[augiedoggy]

I went your route almost two years ago and you are right, over 1/2 of the stuff in Kal's panel is extra fluff. Here is what I learned from doing my own panel..

I was originally "all about" GFI breakers until my electrician brother in-law pointed out that my stove and dryer are both plugged into non-GFI outlets, both are metal and both are safe. He explained that safe wiring practices are far more important than a GFI breaker. You need to make-up your own mind about GFI but my setup does not have one.


Be very careful about following any advice from this site without checking with an electrician first. There is a lot a false information & dangerous advice floating around the net and homebrewtalk is no exception.

But the biggest piece of advice is if you are unsure about electricity and wiring don't wire your own panel!!! There are a lot of low cost alternatives to Kal's control panel. There is some good discussion on this thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/getting-started-electric-system-question-449968/


I got a lot of help from my brother in-law. I learned from him that 12 gauge wire is legal and safe in a brew panel. He showed me with his IR thermometer that even with my 5500 watt boil pot running wide open the 12 gauge wire in my setup does not even get warm.

I dont think I would consider a range and dryers electrocution risk the same as a homemade metal pot of liquid with the re-purposed electric heating element IN that liquid with homemade non rated enclosures protecting its wiring?
Theres a lot more risk that something can go wrong with a non UL listed homemade appliance such as this.

To quote what I was told yesterday " Why risk it to save a few bucks?"
Funny This is the exact type of point I was trying to make yesterday in the auto wire thread you had started with safety concern ....

Ken,
Do you really feel breaking code this way is safe and ok but using a 10gauge wire that wasnt certified for the 120v 23a load inside a panel where it would just trip the ground fault breaker if it ever did fail after years of breaking down (if it did) isnt?

Going without a gfci has the real potential to electrocute someone whereas the gfci is one of the things that would prevent the auto wire from ever reaching that point if the insulation really was inferior and it failed...

At least you covered your first quoted suggestion with your second to negate it.

And Does that 12 gauge 20 amp max rated element cord meet Code for a 23a amp load in this case?? The jury is still apparently out on that one with opinions on both sides of the fence... It doesnt matter if it works well without getting warm... I tried to use logic like that yesterday.

 

[hunter306]

I think I understand what @kenh was driving at, that safe wiring in the panel and attention to detail in the work building the elements and kettles is the likely the most important when creating a safe electric brewing system.

With that being said, I have to agree with @augie that even with very conscious attention to potential problems, a GFCI Breaker or inline GFCI is a must to prevent unintended failures from causing serious harm. I'd put the GFCI on the 'must' list, not the 'optional' list.

 

[augiedoggy]

I agree with both your points Hunter.

 

[atoughram]

as I mentioned earlier....http://www.stilldragon.com/diy-controller.html

the ebrew element kit above can be purchased locally at lowes or home depot for about $50-60 a piece... but you actually have to drive to the store and pick the stuff out... not worth the savings to some I'm sure...

That Stilldragon kit is a good deal - I paid $19 bucks just for the SSVR on Ebay.

 

[atoughram]

I used 12/3 SO cord on my 5500w element and I believe It's code. 2008 NFPA 70 Table 400.5(A) Column B shows that 12ga SO cord can carry 25 amps. One of the notes below says "The allowable currents under Column B apply to 2-conductor cords and other multi conductor cords connected to utilization equipment so that only 2 conductors are current-carrying".

Since I'm only using 2 conductors to carry current and 1 for a non-current carrying ground, there is nothing I can see in 400.5 that derates it.

At 23 amps, that cord doesn't even think about heating up. I dont want to get into this argument, just thinking about my reasoning - carry on...

 

[augiedoggy]

I used 12/3 SO cord on my 5500w element and I believe It's code. 2008 NFPA 70 Table 400.5(A) Column B shows that 12ga SO cord can carry 25 amps. One of the notes below says "The allowable currents under Column B apply to 2-conductor cords and other multi conductor cords connected to utilization equipment so that only 2 conductors are current-carrying".

Since I'm only using 2 conductors to carry current and 1 for a non-current carrying ground, there is nothing I can see in 400.5 that derates it.

At 23 amps, that cord doesn't even think about heating up. I dont want to get into this argument, just thinking about my reasoning - carry on...

I did some more reading on this and Yes, it looks like you and Ken are right about being able to use 12/3 so cord. I mistakenly took the advice I got from the general consensus that 10/3 was needed..All the derating talf just made things more confusing..
I have like 12-15 ft of 12/3 sitting on a spool too....
Oh well live and learn, case for point kenh made above I guess...
I was pretty heated when making the comments above. You wont convince me the gfci is waste here though If its not required for by code for something like this then I dont know what should be.

 

[atoughram]

You wont convince me the gfci is waste here though If its not required for by code for something like this then I dont know what should be.

You wouldn't hear me saying it's a waste...

 

[Bobby_M]

Regarding the GFCI thing... just don't skimp there. It's a $50 life insurance policy that your wife doesn't need to cash in.

Given the OP's first post, I don't get the impression that he needs to skimp and run a VSSR and watch a thermometer. All you need is one good PID with manual mode, put the RTD or thermocouple in the HLT and then when you're ready to boil you swap element cords and you go manual mode. You don't even need to move the sensor because the PID doesn't need to know the temp in the boil.

If you don't want to swap element cords, you can either use a 25 or 30 amp DPDT switch or a low amperage switch and a pair of DPST contactors (about $13 each on elecdirect.com).

As far as element kits are concerned, I'm partial to this one:

You add the cord, plug and element.

The BK should get a Camco ripple element $27 on amazon.com
The HLT doesn't matter as much but Lowes has a ULWD foldback 5500 watt for like $17.

 

[iijakii]

Why not a $8 dpdt relay?

 

[augiedoggy]

Regarding the GFCI thing... just don't skimp there. It's a $50 life insurance policy that your wife doesn't need to cash in.

Given the OP's first post, I don't get the impression that he needs to skimp and run a VSSR and watch a thermometer. All you need is one good PID with manual mode, put the RTD or thermocouple in the HLT and then when you're ready to boil you swap element cords and you go manual mode. You don't even need to move the sensor because the PID doesn't need to know the temp in the boil.

If you don't want to swap element cords, you can either use a 25 or 30 amp DPDT switch or a low amperage switch and a pair of DPST contactors (about $13 each on elecdirect.com).

As far as element kits are concerned, I'm partial to this one:

You add the cord, plug and element.

The BK should get a Camco ripple element $27 on amazon.com
The HLT doesn't matter as much but Lowes has a ULWD foldback 5500 watt for like $17.

even though my cheap epoxy filled coupling does the job I bookmarked your element housings for the next build or if I upgrade to 5500 elements... as in stands now I have to chop the cable and rewire if my element fails (unlikely) but still... at the time I had just spend too much in too short a time period... I have some extra money from selling one of my cars but I'm trying to save for a downpayment on a new house and finished basement to convert to a mancave/brewhouse! priorities!!

 

[Bobby_M]

Why not a $8 dpdt relay?

Well, you can use a DPDT relay if you can find one that can do 240v @ 25 amps but then you also want a positive disconnect in addition to that. If you use a selector switch with center off and two contactors, you have have both functions in one control knob.

 

[augiedoggy]

Well, you can use a DPDT relay if you can find one that can do 240v @ 25 amps but then you also want a positive disconnect in addition to that. If you use a selector switch with center off and two contactors, you have have both functions in one control knob.

Thats what I've done exactly only I use these relays which are small and activated with 24v dc... it is rated for 25a and 240v... I had them laying around from xerox equipment I service. They are a lot like the magnacraft ones found on ebay that use 120v switching on the coil.

 

[bigirishape]

Tons of info all, thanks a bunch for the feedback and suggestions!

It looks like I'm going to need:

1. GFCI Circuit Breaker
2. Control Panel Enclosure
3. 2x Heating Elements (3800w 240v, probably) and waterproof enclosures
4. 2x 40a SSR + Heatsink
5. 1 PID w/ temp probes (for HLT, not necessary for BK)
6. Emergency Stop Button/Switch
7. 2-position Keyed Power Switch
8. DPDT Relay to work with the power switch
9. A few LEDs to show what's on and off

Does that sound about right? I'm not including the wire, connectors and any mounting hardware - those are a given.

Only using keggles for 5-10 batches so I'm not sure if I need the full 5500w elements at this point...

 

[kenh]

I dont think I would consider a range and dryers electrocution risk the same as a homemade metal pot of liquid with the re-purposed electric heating element IN that liquid with homemade non rated enclosures protecting its wiring?
Theres a lot more risk that something can go wrong with a non UL listed homemade appliance such as this.

To quote what I was told yesterday " Why risk it to save a few bucks?"
Funny This is the exact type of point I was trying to make yesterday in the auto wire thread you had started with safety concern ....

Ken,
Do you really feel breaking code this way is safe and ok but using a 10gauge wire that wasnt certified for the 120v 23a load inside a panel where it would just trip the ground fault breaker if it ever did fail after years of breaking down (if it did) isnt?

Going without a gfci has the real potential to electrocute someone whereas the gfci is one of the things that would prevent the auto wire from ever reaching that point if the insulation really was inferior and it failed...

At least you covered your first quoted suggestion with your second to negate it.

And Does that 12 gauge 20 amp max rated element cord meet Code for a 23a amp load in this case?? The jury is still apparently out on that one with opinions on both sides of the fence... It doesnt matter if it works well without getting warm... I tried to use logic like that yesterday.

I think we are both concerned about safety and we are "talking around each other". I'm making my point about safe wiring because several friends who want to get into all electric have the attitude that "it's OK if it's protected by GFI". What I read into their comments and questions is it's OK to take a few shortcuts if you have a GFI installed because GFI will protect you and that's a dangerous attitude to have.

All of my wiring is clean and all of my electrical connections are straight & tight. I got a lot of advice from my brother in-law who is a experienced industrial electrician and I did not make any decisions without consulting him first, and that includes running 12 gauge THHN wires to my heater element sockets. The only thing I did that he did not like is my original setup was done on a piece of plywood, but everything is safely mounted in a steel box now.

I don't have GFI because my brother in-law said that if everything is done right and everything is properly grounded I don't need GFI. He explained that if everything is done properly any stray voltages would go directly to ground. In addition to the grounds running to my pots and RIMS tube he had me run an extra ground to my brew stand frame. I would not have run that last ground but after it was run I understand why. I would never talk anyone out of installing GFI, just do your wiring as though the GFI did not exist.

Here are the wire sizes I'm running:
10 Gauge incoming power cord
12 Gauge black wire from the main disconnect to each SSR
12 Gauge red wire from the main disconnect to the 240V outlets
12 Gauge black wire from the SSRs to the 240V outlets
14 Gauge green wire from the main ground lug to all of the 240V outlet grounds
14 Gauge green wire from the main ground lug to the brew stand frame
14 Gauge black wire to the 5 Amp pump breaker
14 Gauge black wire from the pump breaker to the pump switch
14 Gauge black wire from the pump switch to the pump outlet
14 Gauge white wire from the main ground lug to the pump outlet
14 Gauge green wire from the main ground lug to pump outlet ground
22 Gauge black wire to the PIDs
22 Gauge white wire to the PIDs
22 Gauge black wire from the PIDs to the SSRs
22 Gauge red wire from the PIDs to the SSRs

Also, I asked my brother in-law if I could just jumper the white and green together on the pump outlet because both are going to the same ground stud in the box. His response was "because it's not proper and both still need to be run separate inside the box or appliance, even in a 3 wire system".

 

[passedpawn]

I don't have GFI because my brother in-law said that if everything is done right and everything is properly grounded I don't need GFI. He explained that if everything is done properly any stray voltages would go directly to ground.

That's true, but when you touch that metal pot then the stray current will run through you too. And don't kid yourself, your breaker is not going to trip - my breaker requires 30A before it decides there's a problem. I'm really most sincerely dead by then.

So, the problem here is that the breaker will save the wire in your system, but it won't save you. The grounds in your system will shunt electrical shorts to ground, but you will become part of that circuit when you touch something and you're grounded.

A GFCI will save your life. Instantly, well before you become part of the circuit.

 

[augiedoggy]

Tons of info all, thanks a bunch for the feedback and suggestions!

It looks like I'm going to need:

1. GFCI Circuit Breaker
2. Control Panel Enclosure
3. 2x Heating Elements (3800w 240v, probably) and waterproof enclosures
4. 2x 40a SSR + Heatsink
5. 1 PID w/ temp probes (for HLT, not necessary for BK)
6. Emergency Stop Button/Switch
7. 2-position Keyed Power Switch
8. DPDT Relay to work with the power switch
9. A few LEDs to show what's on and off

Does that sound about right? I'm not including the wire, connectors and any mounting hardware - those are a given.

Only using keggles for 5-10 batches so I'm not sure if I need the full 5500w elements at this point...

I'm assuming you also need something to control the bk element.... a potentiometer and a ssvr (I may I got that wrong so someone please correct me if so) if you dont want to use an element.... and youl need another relay for that as well unless....

you unplug your hlt heating element and plug the bk in and control it with the same pid... you can leave the temp sensor plugged into the hlt if you want as one need to be plugged in to work but I suggest spending the extra $10 for a $6 rtd and a $2 xlr connector to be able to swap temp sensor plugs as well.... this way is the simplist method utilizing a pid.

 

[augiedoggy]

Kenh

I get what your saying I really do... But its just like in a kitchen or bathroom (or basement wiring now)... Things may be wired and grounded correctly there too but since water is in the mix the gfci is really the safest route... its certianly taking a bigger risk than the one you brought up in the other thread and thats my point... would it cause an issue likely not but at least the wrong wire insulation would just trip a regular breaker once it shorted and not kill anyone (or it would be much less likely too) than sticking your hand or metal paddle in an electrically charged pot full of wort.
the whole thing is just penny wise pound foolish ... My argument over there as well.

I really think its a bad idea to suggest to people a gfci isnt needed here just like its was a bad idea for people to misunderstand my comments on the other thread for me suggesting the auto wire should be used... I was merely trying to make the same point as you.... The insulation almost certainly failed the code testing for 120v loads (if it was tested) because of some non applicable variable like extreme temps or physical durability and it likely wouldn't have caused a problem in a panel but others were right Why take the chance?

If these electric brewery systems were commercially sold and the manufactuer was to seek to get UL listing certification like 95% of all other electrical appliances I bet a gfci would be required for code I'm only assuming here but I think it would be... Hell even new hair dryers have them on the plug now.

the other thing that needs to be taken into consideration (a lesson I learned the hard way) is not everyone will understand what you are saying the same way.... Some will just see you stating a gfci is not needed and add that to a list of other cost saving shortcuts that will also may it less safe... they dont understand or comprehend the additional information you shared about other shortcuts not being taken. They just see "not needed" and "cheaper"

 

[bigirishape]

I'm assuming you also need something to control the bk element.... a potentiometer and a ssvr (I may I got that wrong so someone please correct me if so) if you dont want to use an element.... and youl need another relay for that as well unless....

you unplug your hlt heating element and plug the bk in and control it with the same pid... you can leave the temp sensor plugged into the hlt if you want as one need to be plugged in to work but I suggest spending the extra $10 for a $6 rtd and a $2 xlr connector to be able to swap temp sensor plugs as well.... this way is the simplist method utilizing a pid.

I forgot to include the two on-off switches for the Heating Elements. I could toss in another PID w/ probe to control the temp, but I've had friends who e-brew say that I really don't need to monitor the BK...just let it go.

2 on-off switches going to 2 SSR's w/ heatsinks going to 2 heating elements, but only the HLT has a PID and probe to control temp, and BK is just an ON or OFF setting b/c I don't think I need to control the temp of the BK as tight.

 

[augiedoggy]

I forgot to include the two on-off switches for the Heating Elements. I could toss in another PID w/ probe to control the temp, but I've had friends who e-brew say that I really don't need to monitor the BK...just let it go.

2 on-off switches going to 2 SSR's w/ heatsinks going to 2 heating elements, but only the HLT has a PID and probe to control temp, and BK is just an ON or OFF setting b/c I don't think I need to control the temp of the BK as tight.

I can tell you from experience you do need something with 3800w and 5 gallons of wort...way too much heat for the boil.and way too vigorous a boil at 100% on the element power. hopefully someone else chimes in here to confirm.

If you had say 2000w element then you could leave it on 100% without any real issue I believe but it will also take forever to get to a boil...


and if your going the route you mentioned you want one three way switch with on-off-on positions (as mentioned by kal above) so theres no chance of you running both at the same time unless you planning on running a 40A 220 line? then it would be fine.

 

[bigirishape]

Yep, good call on the 3 position switch. I completely forgot to put any switches aside from the key start and emergency stop on my list...that would have made for a frustrating build-day...

 

[Bobby_M]

Make it really easy on yourself and use a single SSR controlled with a PID that has a manual mode like the Auber 2352. From the SSR, you can either run it to a single outlet and then just plug the appropriate element in depending on the step you're at. If you don't mind the extra cost, you can use two outlets and use two contactors with a ON/OFF/ON selector switch and then you won't need to plug and unplug. The temp probe will stay in the HLT but the PID will still be controlling the BK boil intensity. Anyone that tells you that you can just let an element rip either doesn't mind waiting for a slow boil to build or doesn't mind boiling over. Think about brewing on a propane burner that doesn't have a knob.

 

[augiedoggy]

or you could buy two mypin TD4 pids with manual mode for the same price as that single Auber 2352....
the TD4 is down to $22 shipped from NY

 

[ryomac]

Regarding the GFCI thing... just don't skimp there. It's a $50 life insurance policy that your wife doesn't need to cash in.

Given the OP's first post, I don't get the impression that he needs to skimp and run a VSSR and watch a thermometer. All you need is one good PID with manual mode, put the RTD or thermocouple in the HLT and then when you're ready to boil you swap element cords and you go manual mode. You don't even need to move the sensor because the PID doesn't need to know the temp in the boil.

If you don't want to swap element cords, you can either use a 25 or 30 amp DPDT switch or a low amperage switch and a pair of DPST contactors (about $13 each on elecdirect.com).

As far as element kits are concerned, I'm partial to this one:

You add the cord, plug and element.

The BK should get a Camco ripple element $27 on amazon.com
The HLT doesn't matter as much but Lowes has a ULWD foldback 5500 watt for like $17.

Z


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Bobby_M]

or you could but two mypin TD4 pids with manual mode for the same price as that single Auber 2352....
the TD4 is down to $22 shipped from NY

Either way. I don't have any vested interest in Auber products it's just the one I know. I'd like to grab the TD4 to play around with it to see how it compares.

 

[augiedoggy]

Either way. I don't have any vested interest in Auber products it's just the one I know. I'd like to grab the TD4 to play around with it to see how it compares.

I figured... I was just throwing it out there as an option.

I wish someone would do a comparison between the auber sestos and mypin TD4...

 

[kenh]

I figured... I was just throwing it out there as an option.

I wish someone would do a comparison between the auber sestos and mypin TD4...

Why don't you do one? I would but I don't have the money.

 

[augiedoggy]

Why don't you do one? I would but I don't have the money.

lol honestly... I am getting serious grief from the GF about spending money I should be saving for a house.... I just bought a "broken " kegerator with two c02 tanks from a member here who had them on craigslist.... If it wasnt for the repair only requiring me to disassemble the relay and clean the contacts with a scotchbrite I would be in the doghouse right now instead of coming out the hero acquiring the kegerator for the cost of the two tanks if bought new...

 

[bigirishape]

It's starting to look like the big investment will be getting the power run. Been talking with a guy in my club who does electric, and he has a whole ton of parts laying around for work, so in about two weeks going to go check out his setup as he makes a Barleywine (and probably stay to help and sample a few homebrews), and see what we can scrape together...

If anybody does have a review/comparison of the MYPIN and the Auber, I'd love to see it. I'm leaning towards the Auber just because it's the most frequent name I hear, but the MYPIN is a definitely attractive price point...

Thanks again for all the feedback guys (and possibly gals)!