The Ultimate Immigration Policy...

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Sir Humpsalot

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
93
I've discussed this with lawyers, illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, citizens, bar tenders, etc etc etc. I've discussed this immigration plan with everybody and nobody can really find any fault with it whatsoever. Is it really this simple?

Fact: Illegal Immigration makes things cheaper for us
Fact: Immigration helps bring smart, talented, hard working people to our country.
Fact: Supply and Demand economics does a far better job at regulating the market for illegal immigrants than Washington ever could.

Therefore, my immigration policy would be this:

For every illegal immigrant we ship back to their home country, we will take the next person on the list who has legally applied for citizenship and has been waiting patiently and legally in their home country, for the longest period of time.

Of course, there are details in that plan that would need to be fleshed out, but in principle, I'm not seeing why that wouldn't be a pretty good system... It would get dishonest people out of the country, it would encourage people to rat out illegal immigrants, and it would reinforce the fact that we want citizens who abide by the law. It would bring in a steady supply of workers, it would prevent us from being seen as anti-immigration. Morally and ethically, you can't deny that somebody who applied for citizenship and is waiting patiently shouldn't be given fewer rights than somebody who hops across the border illegally...

And this system isn't perfect. Ideally, everybody would stand patiently in line and do exactly what we say. But, naturally, that's not realistic. So, given the conundrum we're in and all this talk about building fences and other nonsense, why not come up with a policy that puts a high reward on people who do what they are supposed to be doing?
 
OP
Sir Humpsalot

Sir Humpsalot

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
93
Sorry in advance if it turns too political... I'm just trying to figure out why this simple system wouldn't work...
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
7,357
Reaction score
1,175
Location
Redding Ca
we as americans and as a politicaly minded group will never let this happen!!!WHY??? you ask [good question] BECAUSE IT MAKES TO MUCH DAMN SENCE and we cant have that
JJ
 

Evan!

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
11,835
Reaction score
104
Location
Charlottesville, VA
The first hurdle I see is that the vast majority of the cheap immigrant labor in this country is a result of the fact that the immigrants are, in fact, illegals, and thus have no recourse against shoddy (below min wage) pay, lack of benefits, etc., etc. They can't raise a stink, because they're living outside the law themselves. You also have to acknowledge the fact that the ones who are trying to enter legally are probably higher up on the socioeconomic ladder than the ones who are sneaking over the border under the cover of night. Once you introduce an all-legal immigrant workforce, it changes those dynamics greatly. Not saying it's a bad thing, but you can't just switch one for the other and expect the status quo not to change.
 
OP
Sir Humpsalot

Sir Humpsalot

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
93
Evan! said:
The first hurdle I see is that the vast majority of the cheap immigrant labor in this country is a result of the fact that the immigrants are, in fact, illegals, and thus have no recourse against shoddy (below min wage) pay, lack of benefits, etc., etc. They can't raise a stink, because they're living outside the law themselves. You also have to acknowledge the fact that the ones who are trying to enter legally are probably higher up on the socioeconomic ladder than the illegals. Once you introduce an all-legal immigrant workforce, it changes those dynamics greatly. Not saying it's a bad thing, but you can't just switch one for the other and expect the status quo not to change.
Good points. But there is the guest worker program. There's no reason that it couldn't be expanded to allow greater citizenship rights. There's no reason we couldn't, instead of taking the very next person in line to enter the country, just accept the very next "skilled farm hand" or whatever.

Also, I like your point about most of the illegals getting jobs because they are illegal. However, while this is true, if you think about it, politically, it's almost impossible for a company to use this argument without giving themselves a black eye. So, unless there's something to that which is very important to our economy (a dirty little secret, so to speak), it's nearly indefensible.
 

Schlenkerla

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
16,776
Reaction score
5,871
Sir Humpsalot said:
Sorry in advance if it turns too political... I'm just trying to figure out why this simple system wouldn't work...
It could be simple. I think it should start w/ enforcing the laws on the books. Secure the borders then start/expand the guest worker program. Businesses that want workers should sponser the people who want to come here to work.

The difficult part has to do with enforcing the law or dealing with the consequences once its been violated. Some people don't want to punish the illegals. They look at them as innocent victims, when they are not. They knowingly snuck accross the the border. (The adults)

I do not know how bad the immigration bureaucracy is since I haven't gone through the process. I was in the military so I know all about the gov't redtape. I imagine the existing bureacracy has some blame in this. But even the slightest bureaucracy is needed to filter out unwanted people. I believe its too easy to for many to cross the border regardless of the ability to get legal immigration status.

Security has to be the top concern. Obtaining security may look cruel but its the only assemblance of order to getting immigration under control.

My 2 cents.
 

MNBugeater

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
945
Reaction score
13
Location
Minneapolis, MN
There are a number of inconsistencies with the 'illegal immigration' discussions.

And by assured, im not directing this at anyone in particular in this thread...just observations.

The first and i believe foremost is that people use the benefits of "Immigration" to justify "Illegal Immigration". I have YET to hear an argument against "Immigration", but have heard many against "Illegal Immigration".

If people will separate the two definitions, we will be closer to some sort of National policy and agreement.

I will contest one of the points of the OP in that Illegal Immigration makes things "cheaper for us". I would politely disagree. As Evan points out, their cheap labor is a by product of being illegal. And long term that doesnt save us any money, as they are paid a poor wage and society supports them through higher taxes, healthcare costs, and social welfare. But now im getting into a harder political discussion, so ill stop and hope to preserve a CALM and logical conversation rather than a flaming political one...

My main point is that people cant defend illegal immigration by touting the fact that we are ALL immigrants or that we were founded on immigration. There are processes to immigrate to the U.S. If the government and society want to make that easier, im all for it. But dont confuse that with Illegal or forget the word "Illegal" in the "immigration" debate.

Hope i didnt offend anyone...
 
OP
Sir Humpsalot

Sir Humpsalot

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
93
Good points all. And bugeater, I don't see anything offensive in your observations...

As for Schlenkerla's suggestion that we enforce the laws on the books, well, I agree in principle, but when I think about a secured border, I kind of laugh to myself. Berlin Wall, anybody? Anybody want to build a new Berlin wall? Personally, I think the cost would be obscene. And, more to the point, I think it would send a real negative message to the rest of the world. Who builds walls like that? Communists, Nazis, (and the ancient Chinese too, I suppose and I guess they weren't bad, nor were the Romans, but both those empires sure fell hard didn't they?), etc. I simply don't want that. I don't want a huge wall around our country. Sure, I want to support immigration enforcement, but I don't want a huge wall.

And I don't really believe that anybody on either side of the political spectrum really relishes the idea of building another Great Wall... I think it's just reflecting the frustration of some people over the issue and I can accept that, even if I don't agree. But enforcement is tricky then, just shipping people back across an imaginary border so they can cross again. There's the frustration part and it's there regardless of your views on immigration, I think.

I guess my idea is to sidestep the issue, accepting illegal immigration as it is, but using it as a barometer to assess the need for workers, which could then be converted to legal workers through the deportation of the illegals.... that's not a perfect system, but it lets supply and demand rules and applies punishment to rule breakers while rewarding upstanding people who seek to be citizens.
 

Bulls Beers

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
3,293
Reaction score
176
Secure the borders. Fine companies that hire Illegals and start over..Let's get the LEGAL americans that aren't working, into these jobs. Whether there on the Gov't payroll or just out of work.
 
OP
Sir Humpsalot

Sir Humpsalot

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
93
Bulls Beers said:
Secure the borders.
If that were an even remotely easy task, there wouldn't be an immigration debate. So the question becomes, do we undertake an enormous securitization plan that will be expensive and have questionable success? Or do we find a way to de-incentivize illegal immigration? Make it less attractive?

Now, we don't want to detain them, that costs money, we don't want to ship them back because that costs money and they can just return, and we can't want to fine them because they won't pay it anyway once they return home. The problem is that there are presently few disincentives.

So by allowing legals in exchange for illegals, it doesn't disincentivize the illegal activity, but it ensures on an abstract level that the job they had won't be there when they try to sneak across the border next time.
 

Bulls Beers

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
3,293
Reaction score
176
If we had politicians with some balls, we certainly can sercure the borders. They are afraid and won't do it. Very sad. IMO. Like I said before. Secure borders and fine companies that hire them. Once the jobs are gone, they will go home. We make it to easy for them to stay here.
 

Reverend JC

2500 gallons year to date
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
1,878
Reaction score
3
Location
Your Mom's
Evan! said:
The first hurdle I see is that the vast majority of the cheap immigrant labor in this country is a result of the fact that the immigrants are, in fact, illegals, and thus have no recourse against shoddy (below min wage) pay, lack of benefits, etc., etc. They can't raise a stink, because they're living outside the law themselves. You also have to acknowledge the fact that the ones who are trying to enter legally are probably higher up on the socioeconomic ladder than the ones who are sneaking over the border under the cover of night. Once you introduce an all-legal immigrant workforce, it changes those dynamics greatly. Not saying it's a bad thing, but you can't just switch one for the other and expect the status quo not to change.

actually, not that good of a point. while there is some of that going on, alot of the illegals are using fake SS#s and are being paid normal wages, the taxes do get paid but against someone elses number, usually a dead person. So, alot are not providing cheap labor, just labor most americans dont want to do. And, btw, if McCain was to offer me 50 an hour to pick lettuce like he said two years ago or when ever it was, i would totally do it on the weekends. do you know what brewing stuff lettuce picking can get you?
 

EdWort

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2006
Messages
11,894
Reaction score
444
Location
Bee Cave, Texas
I'm all for legal immigration. Bring in all the educated, hard working, big buck tax paying immigrants you want, but do it legally.

Anyone else can get in line, but don't come here simply for the hand outs.
 

TxBrew

Welcome to Zombo
Staff member
Admin
Mod
HBT Supporter
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Messages
9,378
Reaction score
2,128
Fact: Illegal Immigration makes things cheaper for us

Maybe, not sure it's a fact but at what cost?

My FIL was a tile setter. He did fairly good in his day. He was able to make a decent living and support his family. He was great at what he did.

Towards the later years it was harder and harder to get work. Contractors would sub-contract the work to illegal aliens then outbid him because their labor costs were so low. It's like that across the South. Trade jobs which in the past were able to support a family are hard to continue because illegal aliens do it for so much cheaper.
 

mrfocus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
573
Reaction score
3
Location
Montreal, Canada
MNBugeater said:
My main point is that people cant defend illegal immigration by touting the fact that we are ALL immigrants or that we were founded on immigration.
Just putting this out there, but what about:

1) the genocides that were committed by "immigrants" (whites) to the USA in the name of the government and the repercussions felt today. I'm sure the state of Native Americans in the USA is as bad as those here in Canada, and it's simply atrocious. Consider the fact that in Canada, a few explorers from France and such came here and declared the territory as belonging to kingdom of France... even though Native Americans had been here for centuries, calling the territory their own then, afterwards realizing they got screwed...

2) massive immigration into territories such as Texas to sway the proportion of voters for independence from Mexico to then join the USA? I'm just saying I doubt the then Mexican government wouldn't have seen it coming and wouldn't have tried to stop the immigration, so that the vote wouldn't be swayed.

Just things to think about.
 

EdWort

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2006
Messages
11,894
Reaction score
444
Location
Bee Cave, Texas
I think it is time all Texans immigrated to Quebec and change the culture to add a Southern twang to it all. :D

Oui Oui, ya'll :D
 

Baron von BeeGee

Beer Bully
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
5,374
Reaction score
30
Location
Barony of Fuquay-Varina, NC
TxBrew said:
Trade jobs which in the past were able to support a family are hard to continue because illegal aliens do it for so much cheaper.
I think this is a pretty big rub. And frankly, while the illegal immigrants who come here and do that work might be doing better than they can in their own country, they're still not really attaining a great standard of living (at least by my standards).

I'm no economist, but I think the biggest problem with NAFTA is that it opens the borders for goods to move freely, but not the workers. Therefore, a worker in Mexico producing widgets still makes a crap wage, an American widget maker is out of business, and Yay! we've got cheap widgets.

Open up the borders to workers if the goods can move freely (workers, not anybody that wants to walk across). Then the market that ensures the best and most fair labor conditions will get the workers and the economy, and I think there would be a similar effect for tradesmen. The ol' saying "they do the work that nobody else will do" isn't really true - they'll just do that work for a wage that can't really support anybody.

BTW, I'm pro-immigration.
 

niquejim

Burrowing Owl Brewery
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
2,370
Reaction score
60
Location
Cape Coral Florida
Sir Humpsalot said:
If that were an even remotely easy task, there wouldn't be an immigration debate. So the question becomes, do we undertake an enormous securitization plan that will be expensive and have questionable success? Or do we find a way to de-incentivize illegal immigration? Make it less attractive?

Now, we don't want to detain them, that costs money, we don't want to ship them back because that costs money and they can just return, and we can't want to fine them because they won't pay it anyway once they return home. The problem is that there are presently few disincentives.

So by allowing legals in exchange for illegals, it doesn't disincentivize the illegal activity, but it ensures on an abstract level that the job they had won't be there when they try to sneak across the border next time.
So a family of losers sign up for immigration to the U.S. and as their time gets nearer they send their biggest loser relative to get caught and returned for a legal swap. Even a good plan has a loophole.
 

Latest posts

Top