American IPA The New West Coast IPA

[Bassman2003]

Enjoying this thread. A lot to experiment with!

 

[ihavenonickname]

just my experience but hoppy beers that have crystal in it taste a little oxidized immediately to me. Maybe it’s just an association in my head but I can’t get passed it.

 

[Dgallo]

just my experience but hoppy beers that have crystal in it taste a little oxidized immediately to me. Maybe it’s just an association in my head but I can’t get passed it.

I’m sure it’s more in your head than anything, you see a darker SRM and you e been so conditioned to associate it with oxidation that you taste it. But maybe you have just had oxidized darker SRM hoppys lol

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I’ll be brewing one of these this weekend but going to use a more traditional grainbill.

This is similar to where I like my grain bill for IPAs and Pale Ales...2-Row, with around 10% light Munich, a little Crystal malt, and often a little malted wheat. I might go for a lighter Crystal for an IPA and maybe a higher percentage of a medium Crystal for a Pale Ale.

I tend to think that Crystal and Oxidation are a much bigger issue for commercial brewers that have to worry about packaged beers sitting on a shelf for months, vs my keg sitting cold for 6 weeks. Back when I took steps to avoid cold side oxidation (including not using a secondary) I was amazed at how much lighter in color and less sweet my IPAs and Pale Ales became, even when I was using 10% Crystal.

I am hoping to brew a Cold IPA here soon, and maybe I will give a try at brewing a 100% Pils/Pale "New" West Coast IPA. I do really like a 100% Pils West Coast Pilsner.

 

[ihavenonickname]

I like cold IPAs, but every time I have one with say 20% corn I think to myself, “this would be much better with 20% more pils”

 

[jordanfrenzy]

Got my vote!

Stone Ruination, as well as the Original Stone IPA. Just about anything from Ballast Point. And of course the champ: Pliny the Elder.

But is it all just “fond remembering”? I was in Total Wine last week (non-beer drinking SWMBO’d needed Pinot), and I ran across some retro Green Flash IPA. I remember being in a San Diego bar in the late 90s/early 00s shortly after Green Flash debuted. I thought it was great!

So traveling down memory lane, I picked up a six pack along with the wine. Honestly, it was a letdown. Way too much caramel. The dank hops were there for sure, but the clean taste we’ve evolved into along with balance was noticeably missing.

My IPAs today have the same hops and IBUs of the Millennium beers, but the grist is a mix of Pilsner + 2-row with Munich/Vienna in place of loads of C-40. Today my Go-To when in SoCal is Salty Crew instead of the beers of my younger self. Times change. Tastes evolve.

Come to Colorado, lol. We have virtually unlimited 7+ SRM IPA everywhere. Some very good, some very bad.

Huge fan of the newer, paler, still bitter WCIPA. I've never done 100% Pils/2 Row but I'm sure those beers are good. I like to use this style to learn specialty malts. 95% 2 Row with 5% of Crystal 15/Honey Malt/Aromatic/Victory whatever. Really gives you an idea of what those malts bring to the table.

Brewing this style made me pick up some BioFine for the first time and I'll never go back to gelatin. My last beer was around 14oz of hops total and BioFine dropped it clear in a day or two in the keg. Feels like cheating.

 

[Broothru]

Come to Colorado, lol. We have virtually unlimited 7+ SRM IPA everywhere. Some very good, some very bad.

Huge fan of the newer, paler, still bitter WCIPA. I've never done 100% Pils/2 Row but I'm sure those beers are good. I like to use this style to learn specialty malts. 95% 2 Row with 5% of Crystal 15/Honey Malt/Aromatic/Victory whatever. Really gives you an idea of what those malts bring to the table.

Brewing this style made me pick up some BioFine for the first time and I'll never go back to gelatin. My last beer was around 14oz of hops total and BioFine dropped it clear in a day or two in the keg. Feels like cheating.

Been to Colorado twice in the last year (sadly once for a funeral) and did find some interesting brews, though none that really knocked my socks off. Too many of the local brews followed the pattern of NEIPAs and other flash-in-the-pan ‘new age’ beers.

At least I give Oskar Blues points for attempting to diversify to maintain relevance in this rapidly changing beer landscape. That said, Dales Pale Ale hasn’t aged well. What was once a favorite is now just an after-thought with way too much caramel. I do like the fact that they’re bringing back Pinner as a year-round offering. Also, Mama’s Little Lager and the Mexican cervesa are nice.

And, as much as I hate to admit it, their hazy IPA is pretty drinkable. For a hazy at least.

 

[Bassman2003]

That said, Dales Pale Ale hasn’t aged well. What was once a favorite is now just an after-thought with way too much caramel.

Interesting to see an entire nation's palate improve and move away from oxidized sweet flavors.

 

[jdubdvdt]

Been to Colorado twice in the last year (sadly once for a funeral) and did find some interesting brews, though none that really knocked my socks off. Too many of the local brews followed the pattern of NEIPAs and other flash-in-the-pan ‘new age’ beers.

At least I give Oskar Blues points for attempting to diversify to maintain relevance in this rapidly changing beer landscape. That said, Dales Pale Ale hasn’t aged well. What was once a favorite is now just an after-thought with way too much caramel. I do like the fact that they’re bringing back Pinner as a year-round offering. Also, Mama’s Little Lager and the Mexican cervesa are nice.

And, as much as I hate to admit it, their hazy IPA is pretty drinkable. For a hazy at least.

I can agree - I lived in Colorado in part of the prime IPA years (2010ish). And I would say when I go back I don't find much growth from the breweries there. I feel that way about many breweries these days. The market is saturated with mediocre beers just attempting to follow current trends. Truly shows a lack of skill of the breweries once the old West Coast IPA style died down - can't hide behind the bitterness anymore.

 

[Broothru]

Interesting to see an entire nation's palate improve and move away from oxidized sweet flavors.

I tend to agree. And yet… I don’t remember the 1990s-Early aughts version of Pliny the Elder being in any manner “sweet”. I haven’t had the chance to have one since Vinnie reformulated the recipe 4~5 years ago, but I always considered him to be an innovator who could foresee and set the trends, rather than someone who would follow them and try to copy the latest shiny object.

 

[Dgallo]

I will say, there is a huge difference in the flavor of oxidation and crystal malts. Now will an oxidized ipa that uses crystal taste sweeter, absolutely.

Many english ales are heavier in crystal malt and use hops, no one says oxidation unless it’s actually oxidized. I think a lot of fans of hoppy beers had access to not the best macro breweries versions of IPAs and they were oxidized and not good. At the same rate many of the great nano breweries from the early 2000s have now turned macro and their beers have suffered and they are having oxidation issues due to increased to size.

Also, don’t forget that a lot of the current hop oxidation study’s and science has come out after 2015, when the market already shifted to heavily hopped hazies. So many breweries weren’t putting those practices in place when wc beers reigned supreme

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Many english ales are heavier in crystal malt and use hops, no one says oxidation unless it’s actually oxidized.

In general, British beers use a lot less crystal than foreigners think they do...

And of course the whole conversation around oxidation is rather different for cask-conditioned beers!

 

[Dgallo]

In general, British beers use a lot less crystal than foreigners think they do...

And of course the whole conversation around oxidation is rather different for cask-conditioned beers!

Maybe true but at the same time I realize me saying a lot has no reference but 5-10% seems typical for a lot of English styles which would be higher than what most us brewers would currently use in a hoppy beer. And again, I wasn’t using the correlation to anything other than the use of crystal malts don’t necessarily mean oxidation, poor practices or lack of attention are the culprit

 

[beervoid]

I will say, there is a huge difference in the flavor of oxidation and crystal malts. Now will an oxidized ipa that uses crystal taste sweeter, absolutely.

Many english ales are heavier in crystal malt and use hops, no one says oxidation unless it’s actually oxidized. I think a lot of fans of hoppy beers had access to not the best macro breweries versions of IPAs and they were oxidized and not good. At the same rate many of the great nano breweries from the early 2000s have now turned macro and their beers have suffered and they are having oxidation issues due to increased to size.

Also, don’t forget that a lot of the current hop oxidation study’s and science has come out after 2015, when the market already shifted to heavily hopped hazies. So many breweries weren’t putting those practices in place when wc beers reigned supreme

I think also the infrastructure got better, more cold chain

 

[Dgallo]

I think also the infrastructure got better, more cold chain

Absolutely, that’s a really good point as well!. Covid definitely helped improve that as a whole. The best of the best(US based at least) needed to move beer. Besides treehouse and fidens (because they were in their infancy) every other big player of the time were in distro in the east coast. Trillium, oh, eq, Alch, bosses. Vitamin sea, … all breweries that were in house or special drop prior had to quickly figure out how to get beer out the door into distro. Due to these contracts forcing distribution to keep a cold train to custermer, completely changed the infrastructure of us breweries and distro. Now ever truck and facility had cold storage

 

[Northern_Brewer]

In general, British beers use a lot less crystal than foreigners think they do...

Maybe true but at the same time I realize me saying a lot has no reference but 5-10% seems typical for a lot of English styles which would be higher than what most us brewers would currently use in a hoppy beer.

Yep - that's a perfect example of what I'm saying, in reality the average is probably half that.

Fuller's are probably at the top end - certainly for my taste - with 7.2% light crystal in their main partigyle (Pride/ESB etc) but it goes down to zero crystal for bitter in some northern cities, and maybe 3% in a lot of other places. And just yesterday we were talking about how traditionally mild had little if any crystal in it other than in the distinct regional variation of mild in NW England.

It's interesting to consider how USians in particular have got such a distorted view - partly it's because they tend to visit the Thames Valley which is the most crystal-heavy region of Britain, partly they get confused by colour being increased with caramel and try to colour-match with crystal, partly they drink in crap London pubs that don't always condition out all the priming sugar, and partly they just have a sweeter tooth than other countries.

I've drunk a fair few of US attempts at British styles and apart from those by expats like Bill Arnott at Machine House in Seattle and some very rare USians like Tod Mott of Tributary in Maine, they are mostly pretty terrible. Still, it's interesting watching WCIPAs take a journey away from the Thames Valley and towards something more like Tim Taylor's - less crystal, bit more chloride.... Given my name, I can only approve!

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for the insights Northern. (off topic) So if one were to visit England, what region(s) would you recommend for the best beer?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thanks for the insights Northern. (off topic) So if one were to visit England, what region(s) would you recommend for the best beer?

How long's a piece of string? For single city, probably Manchester but I could be biased, for a bit of variety Yorkshire's probably your best bet.

London's OK if you know where to go, it's just the hit rate of good cellarmanship and beer-friendly ownership is so much lower than just about everywhere else, that you have to rely on its sheer numbers to compensate for that lower hit rate. Hard to beat for pure building quality though.

Since this is very OT, this pre-Covid thread may be more relevant, although obviously some things have changed since then :
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...-london-help-appreciated.672199/#post-8718779

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. Manchester & Yorkshire were going to be my top picks if we get to visit. So glad to hear the choices have merit from an insider!

 

[Dgallo]

Sharing this in a few threads today so you may see it more than once. If your someone who really enjoys dank hops (like me) this is the lot for you. Very dank cannabis forward with a nice citrus undertone, but it has no allium notes (no oniony character). It’s also only $6.99/lb right now.

Just thought I’d share. Lot info in the top left of label

 

[mrcastellino]

Sharing this in a few threads today so you may see it more than once. If your someone who really enjoys dank hops (like me) this is the lot for you. Very dank cannabis forward with a nice citrus undertone, but it has no allium notes (no oniony character). It’s also only $6.99/lb right now.

Just thought I’d share. Lot info in the top left of labelView attachment 862591

Thanks for sharing! I may have to jump on this because I also love columbus / dank hops but its so hard to find lots that are not total onion / garlic bombs. As a general note, I hope we continue to share lot info for hop forward beers so that we all can collectively learn from each other and dont have to roll the dice as much.

Cheers!

 

[mrcastellino]

Thanks for sharing! I may have to jump on this because I also love columbus / dank hops but its so hard to find lots that are not total onion / garlic bombs. As a general note, I hope we continue to share lot info for hop forward beers so that we all can collectively learn from each other and dont have to roll the dice as much.

Cheers!

Darn it looks like they only have 11 pound and 44 pound quantities of this lot available

 

[DrGMG]

Made a variation of this, it really is a great style. Ended up getting second place at an interclub comp. Nelson, Mosaic, Eclipse. 100% pearl malt.

 

[Fergal]

Brewed one of these today in strong pale ale strength. Chinook, Idaho7 & citra on the hotside. Citra, superdelic & galaxy on the cool. Going to go greencheek style and add a substantial dry hop during fermentation. Had a major issue when I was just about getting to boil which I assumed was my brewzilla but actually turned out to be my extension cord... Annoyed with my poor fault finding, however I now get to experiment with a raw ale version of this beer. Wish me luck!

 

[beervoid]

Made a variation of this, it really is a great style. Ended up getting second place at an interclub comp. Nelson, Mosaic, Eclipse. 100% pearl malt.


View attachment 862621

looks fantastic what kind of fining did you use?

 

[DrGMG]

looks fantastic what kind of fining did you use?

None.

 

[elproducto]

I've always wondered, does fining with Gelatin strip out hop compounds?

 

[Dgallo]

I've always wondered, does fining with Gelatin strip out hop compounds?

All cold side fining agents will do it to some extent since it’s dropping out polyphenols and proteins that some compounds stick too. To help plan for that, I actually up my late boil and whirlpool, as that seems to help more character stick around.

I will also add that I personally like biofine as it seems to clear the beer better and seems leave you with a brighter hop character as well

 

[elproducto]

All cold side fining agents will do it to some extent since it’s dropping out polyphenols and proteins that some compounds stick too. To help plan for that, I actually up my late boil and whirlpool, as that seems to help more character stick around.

I will also add that I personally like biofine as it seems to clear the beer better and seems leave you with a brighter hop character as well

Thanks, how much biofine are you dosing? It's fairly pricey compared to Gelatin.

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks, how much biofine are you dosing? It's fairly pricey compared to Gelatin.

I use about 15 - 20ml per 5 gallons. So when you buy the liter(it stores well), it’s about $0.75 - $1.00 per beer (estimated shipping in cost)Some people use less per beer though

https://www.amazon.com/Homebrewers-...733332064&sprefix=biofine+clear,aps,97&sr=8-1

 

[Broothru]

All cold side fining agents will do it to some extent since it’s dropping out polyphenols and proteins that some compounds stick too. To help plan for that, I actually up my late boil and whirlpool, as that seems to help more character stick around.

I will also add that I personally like biofine as it seems to clear the beer better and seems leave you with a brighter hop character as well

Biofine is silicon dioxide, and does a very good job of quickly clearing a finished beer, especially if the beer is chilled below 48F. It seems like it doesn’t strip much in the way of taste or body like others sometimes do (like gelatin). But nothing beats time at cold temperatures, but I don’t usually have the patience for a multi-month lagering for my Continental beers.

 

[elproducto]

I've used Gelatin in the past, and was certain it stripped out hop character.

I just ordered an 8oz bottle of Biofine, I'll give it a try. When is the best time to add it? In the fermenter when cold crashing, or in the keg?

 

[Dgallo]

I've used Gelatin in the past, and was certain it stripped out hop character.

I just ordered an 8oz bottle of Biofine, I'll give it a try. When is the best time to add it? In the fermenter when cold crashing, or in the keg?

I add it to my purged keg right before I rack the cold beer beer into it. I’ll set the keg to about 2psi, fill a plastic syringe with the biofine dose, unscrew the PRV, put the syringe in the hole as the co2 is releasing through it (preventing o2), add the biofine and then screw the prv back in. After I rack the beer in I’ll roll the keg on the floor trying to mix it even more.

 

[Broothru]

I add it to my purged keg right before I rack the cold beer beer into it. I’ll set the keg to about 2psi, fill a plastic syringe with the biofine dose, unscrew the PRV, put the syringe in the hole as the co2 is releasing through it (preventing o2), add the biofine and then screw the prv back in. After I rack the beer in I’ll roll the keg on the floor trying to mix it even more.

I’ve found that the easiest and most efficient way of dosing is just like @Dgallo described, except I use a pressurized PET bottle and carbonation cap through the Gas In post on the purged Corny keg.

I spund and cold crash before transferring to the serving keg, so the beer is partially cleared prior to packaging. Since the beer going in is cold, the Biofine gets well distributed and usually clears extremely well within a day or two. First pull on the tap usually has gunk and gets tossed, but after that it’s cold, clear beer.

 

[beervoid]

I just add it with the dryhops, seem to work fine

 

[Dgallo]

I just add it with the dryhops, seem to work fine

That’s definitely interesting to know that works as it seems to go against the info biofine puts out on temperature the need to be harmoniously mixed.

What is your current dryhoping rate and at temp? If it works well I would much rather leave it in the fv instead of the serving keg

 

[wepeeler]

I've never used Biofine in the fermenter. I have perfect results in the keg. First pint is junk, then perfectly clear beer soon after.

 

[beervoid]

That’s definitely interesting to know that works as it seems to go against the info biofine puts out on temperature the need to be harmoniously mixed.

What is your current dryhoping rate and at temp? If it works well I would much rather leave it in the fv instead of the serving keg

I use it for a westcoast recipe, which I keep temps around 18-20c, I think the residual fermentation mixes it good enough.
I add it with the dry hops at end of fermentation at a rate of about 6ml per 5 gallons.
After cold crashing for 2 days and transferring off to serving keg it's still a little hazy, but you can see fingers through it, kind of chill haze level I would say. Then when I put it on tap within 2-3 days it will be completely clear. A few hazy ish pours later. I'm still dialing in the dosage, perhaps higher dose will work better.
Also perhaps worth noting that I use alot of cryo, so I might not have as much polyphenols to drop out to begin with.

 

[beervoid]

That’s definitely interesting to know that works as it seems to go against the info biofine puts out on temperature the need to be harmoniously mixed.

What is your current dryhoping rate and at temp? If it works well I would much rather leave it in the fv instead of the serving keg

Oh forgot to add dryhop rate would be roughly 8oz of cryo on 5 gal