The Klaus Kling Decoction Method???

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The Gulper
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Klaus Kling in his Bier selbst gebraut suggests a decoction regimen which I've never tried (and I thought I'd tried them all). He calls it "the Kling method" and says it's based on a certain "Two-Kettle method" he found in some old German brewing accounts. He claims he experimented with it and got excellent results, so he adapted the method for homebrewing.

Essentially, it's a combination of infusion and decoction mash, along with mashtun bittering.
You step mash at protein and saccharification rests, after which you draw a half of the mash (both thick and thin part), boil it for half an hour and put to the lautering vessel, where it cools to form a filtering bed. Then you boil the rest of the mash for 1.5 hours with hops added, rack it onto the first part/filtering bed and rest at a mash out temperature for half an hour, then lauter. No boiling afterwards. Just chill and ferment.

I'd like to ask those more experienced in decoction mashing than I am, what's your opinion: does it seem like a tryworthy method, or is it something too unorthodox to be experimented with?
 

Miraculix

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Try it and let us know! Sounds interesting enough to me to give it a try.
 
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I've never tried The Kling Method, but I routinely do a kind of a similar thing: a "mash-out single decoction" between the dextrinization rest and the mash-out (the difference being that Mr. Kling boils the full volume of hopped mash in two parts while I decoct just the grain and then boil the lautered wort & hops as usual). We've discussed that in a recent thread and some fellow forum members doubted the expediency of my method because of a risk of unconverted starch extraction (the risk seems to be confirmed by Dr. Narziss, although he doesn't view it considerable enough to rule out the method altogether).

I'm asking here because I hope someone might have already tried The Kling Method and share the experience.
 

doug293cz

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What's the point of the final hold at mash-out temp after essentially all of the mash has been boiled (in two separate steps)? All the enzymes will have already been denatured during the boils.

Brew on :mug:
 

Miraculix

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What's the point of the final hold at mash-out temp after essentially all of the mash has been boiled (in two separate steps)? All the enzymes will have already been denatured during the boils.

Brew on :mug:
Formation of glyco-proteins which enhance foam. Although I am not sure if this actually happens, if both parts have been boiled previously.
 

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Formation of glyco-proteins which enhance foam. Although I am not sure if this actually happens, if both parts have been boiled previously.
If glyco-protein formation is enzyme mediated, then it is highly unlikely for it to occur after boiling.

Brew on :mug:
 
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The author explains his suggestion rather by mechanics than by chemistry. He adds the second boiled part in such a way as not to steer up the already formed filter bed. The second part actually acts as the sparge liquor. He suggests to keep the whole mash for 30 mins at mashout temperature only for particles to settle to easy the lautering and to dissolve sugars in the cooled first part.
 

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The author explains his suggestion rather by mechanics than by chemistry. He adds the second boiled part in such a way as not to steer up the already formed filter bed. The second part actually acts as the sparge liquor. He suggests to keep the whole mash for 30 mins at mashout temperature only for particles to settle to easy the lautering and to dissolve sugars in the cooled first part.
You cannot sparge with first runnings wort (original mash wort.) Sparging is rinsing with fresh water. Running initial mash wort back thru the grain bed will not remove any additional sugar from the grain. Also, sugar is created a molecule at a time in the mash, so it is dissolved when it is created. And, no sugar will precipitate out of the wort at mash temps and above, so there is no sugar to dissolve. Maltose is soluble up to 67% by weight at 150°F (it's almost impossible to get wort higher than 30% sugar by weight in a mash.)

Brew on :mug
 
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He says you may sparge with fresh water afterwards if you wish. And what if I don't wish? Get a first-runnings-Lager of 1.200 SG?
That's why I created this thread. The book looks quite informative and professional otherwise. But this new decoction method confused me a bit.

It would be nice if anyone had a clue on what's exactly that traditional German method which Mr. Kling bases his new method on. Is it that uncommon but not unheard of "single mash-out decoction"? It's been described in details by Dr. Narziss and doesn't include the 30 minutes "mashout rest"... IDK.
 
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doug293cz

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He says you may sparge with fresh water afterwards if you wish. And what if I don't wish? Get a first-runnings-Lager of 1.200 SG?
That's why I created this thread. The book looks quite informative and professional otherwise. But this new decoction method confused me a bit.

It would be nice if anyone had a clue on what's exactly that traditional German method which Mr. Kling bases his new method on. Is it that uncommon but not unheard of "single mash-out decoction"? It's been described in details by Dr. Narziss and doesn't include the 30 minutes "mashout rest"... IDK.
My point was that running the initial mash wort back thru the grain bed is a vorlauf. The purpose of a sparge is to remove some of the residual sugar from the spent grain after (or concurrent with) initial run-off. It's not a sparge unless you use fresh water (or at least much lower SG wort than the initial mash wort.)

Getting a 1st runnings wort of 1.200 SG requires a mash thickness of 0.47 qt/lb. Have fun with that.

Brew on :mug:
 
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I mentioned 1.200 exactly for fun, so yes, havin it already.
Anyway, still interested in the method or knowing its historic origins. There should be some point in it if the author publishes it in his book and says he'd employed it to a great success.
 

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I've never heard of this Mr Kling but I have used a single decoction to get to mash out temp. I used it just to get some bit of melanoidin. I always thought of it as a lazy mans shortcut.
 
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