That German Lager taste

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dmtaylor

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What? Really? I never had anything else than spice from it. Strange. Maybe wired harvest?
Terroir, seasonal differences, etc. etc.

FWIW..... I don't late-hop or dry hop with nobles at all anymore. You'll get plenty of spicy herbal hop character from full 60-minute boil additions alone.

Cheers all.
 

ThatVideoKid

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Yep, this is what I've learned. Going to try again with a heavy 30min addition or something.
 

Miraculix

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The problem I have with melanoidin malt is color. A little goes a long way. I only used 2 oz in a 3 gallon batch and it made the beer significantly darker than I was aiming for. I guess it works for amber lagers but I’m not going to use it again for anything that I want to be light colored, 4-5 SRM. Just a tiny bit will push you past that range.
I can confirm that, but personally, it doesn't matter to me. Ah long as it's clear, I don't care so much about colour... Although, my English bitters tend to be a bit too blonde for my liking tbh :D
 

Brooothru

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I'm currently trying that strain (Imperial yeast harvest) at room temperature in an American hops pilsener-ish type of beer. Looks clear in the fermenter after about 12 days, I'm bottling today, I'm really looking forward to trying the results.

And just to confuse people, s04 gives sulfur flavour when fermented too cold, I once made a pretty convincing pseudo lager with it by accident. Apparently, it can easily become too much sulphur, I might just have been lucky, it was exactly the right amount of it.
"You're a braver man than I, Gunga Din."

"Gutsiest move I ever saw, Maverick."

My brew area temperature never gets below about 65F. I'd be afraid to do a lager yeast at that temperature.

I pitched yeast (WLP-860) @48F, fermented 5 days @50F, 7 days @ 54F, 7 days @ 65F for D-rest and spunding. Slowly crashed at 3°F/day down to 38F (3 weeks) by which time it was completely clear. Clean with very, very faint hint of sulphur. Pressure transfered @ 1 BAR to a sanitized, NaMeta/CO2 purged keg to let it rest in the kegerator before tapping.

Well, the wait got the better of me and only lasted a few days before I decided "just to take a 'sample' ", which of course became multiple 'samples'. Damn, that's a nice beer.
 

Miraculix

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"You're a braver man than I, Gunga Din."

"Gutsiest move I ever saw, Maverick."

My brew area temperature never gets below about 65F. I'd be afraid to do a lager yeast at that temperature.

I pitched yeast (WLP-860) @48F, fermented 5 days @50F, 7 days @ 54F, 7 days @ 65F for D-rest and spunding. Slowly crashed at 3°F/day down to 38F (3 weeks) by which time it was completely clear. Clean with very, very faint hint of sulphur. Pressure transfered @ 1 BAR to a sanitized, NaMeta/CO2 purged keg to let it rest in the kegerator before tapping.

Well, the wait got the better of me and only lasted a few days before I decided "just to take a 'sample' ", which of course became multiple 'samples'. Damn, that's a nice beer.
I did that before with other lager yeasts. As long as they are from the same group of lager yeasts, the beer should be nice. 3470, wlp800, mangrove Jack California lager and now harvest. All produced good to excellent beers at room temperature.
 

monkeymath

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Until I made my own SG, I thought it was a special way to process hops.
It's a flowery fresh smell.
Get an Augustiner at the Bräustuben. Whatever you get at the first smell is sauergut (and some sulfur 😁).
Make one, just for kicks...
Although I have no intention of making a Helles, I am intrigued by this. Augustiner has a subtle, specific floral quality to it that I couldn't quite pin down. I did connect it to Hallertauer Mittelfrüh, although I am rather certain they don't add any late hops.

Making Sauergut sounds fun, but without any measurements, its impact on the mash/beer will be hard to judge. I don't fancy the idea of dumping stuff in my mash without having as much as a guess as to what it'll do in there.
 

Taket_al_Tauro

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This is exactly what I was going to say when I read your first line. You can be as clean as you want with ale yeast (esp things like Lutra) and you wont get that "lager" character. Definitely tasty, but not "lager". Better for the darker lager styles if you're going to do it.
This is interesting what you say about the darker lager styles. I once made a dark Doppelbock with a clean ale yeast that scored really well at a comp. If the judges would have suspected that it was made with an ale yeast, I couldn't have gotten away with it. Also, I came across some rumour saying that Weihenstephan uses an ale yeast for their Doppelbock, the Korbinian... but I don't know if there is really something to it. I think it was someone who heard it at a visit to the brewery. That was actually my inspiration for attempting a Doppelbock with ale yeast in the first place.
I then used the same approach for making a (hoppy) pils, and while it was tasty, it was definitely much less to-style than the Doppelbock.
So next time I'm attempting a pils or some other light lager, I know what to do ;-)
 

Miraculix

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This is interesting what you say about the darker lager styles. I once made a dark Doppelbock with a clean ale yeast that scored really well at a comp. If the judges would have suspected that it was made with an ale yeast, I couldn't have gotten away with it. Also, I came across some rumour saying that Weihenstephan uses an ale yeast for their Doppelbock, the Korbinian... but I don't know if there is really something to it. I think it was someone who heard it at a visit to the brewery. That was actually my inspiration for attempting a Doppelbock with ale yeast in the first place.
I then used the same approach for making a (hoppy) pils, and while it was tasty, it was definitely much less to-style than the Doppelbock.
So next time I'm attempting a pils or some other light lager, I know what to do ;-)
Wlp 800 for example, is actually an ale yeast. There is not such a clear distinction between ale and lager yeasts that one might think there is.
 

Taket_al_Tauro

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Wlp 800 for example, is actually an ale yeast. There is not such a clear distinction between ale and lager yeasts that one might think there is.
Yes definitely. Like all things in biology, it must be more of a grey zone than a clear cut line. And then it is logical that the dark malts, the high alcohol and highish FG of a Doppelbock will help in masking whatever subtle differences exist between a clean ale and a clean lager yeast. Whereas in a light and crisp beer, those differences will come more to the forefront.
 

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I do not understand the resistance to a brewing technique (low oxygen). Why the offense? One has to remember that larger brew systems are inherently much lower oxygen than homebrew systems. They have much much less exposed surface area. So in the end, large systems are low oxygen by nature to begin with. If they happen to de-aerate their water they are pretty much there throughout their process. Some German breweries mash under de-aerated water to limit the malts exposure to anything.

The folks over in the "lodo crowd" are mainly focused on making lagers. That is pretty much all they care about. Yes, they all started out as hido brewers and migrated to these homebrew techniques led by better taste in the end beers. It is a little complicated but so is professional brewing. Strong process along with the aid of sulfites to scavenge oxygen is the approach to try and retain malt flavor that is lost to oxidation. That is all it is. This should be a good thing but it is received as a bad thing. WHY?

I have been studying this brewing approach for the last two years after 16 years of brewing. Some of the low oxygen brewers have been homebrewing for over thirty years. There is a lot of knowledge and experience involved, so I would not dismiss it as a fad. My beers are across the board way better from a flavor, clarity and attenuation perspective.

I do not care how others' brew. We can all get along. These techniques are shared in a spirit of helping.

In the end, if you want to brew a German lager, low oxygen and sauergut are the tops imho.
 

Oleson M.D.

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In our experience, a great German style lager can be made with a single malt, Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner. Do a triple step infusion mash. Tetnang or Hallertau hops.
Diamond Lager yeast.
The water can be moderately hard, think Frankfurt Germany…Bitburger.
 

Miraculix

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I do not understand the resistance to a brewing technique (low oxygen). Why the offense? One has to remember that larger brew systems are inherently much lower oxygen than homebrew systems. They have much much less exposed surface area. So in the end, large systems are low oxygen by nature to begin with. If they happen to de-aerate their water they are pretty much there throughout their process. Some German breweries mash under de-aerated water to limit the malts exposure to anything.

The folks over in the "lodo crowd" are mainly focused on making lagers. That is pretty much all they care about. Yes, they all started out as hido brewers and migrated to these homebrew techniques led by better taste in the end beers. It is a little complicated but so is professional brewing. Strong process along with the aid of sulfites to scavenge oxygen is the approach to try and retain malt flavor that is lost to oxidation. That is all it is. This should be a good thing but it is received as a bad thing. WHY?

I have been studying this brewing approach for the last two years after 16 years of brewing. Some of the low oxygen brewers have been homebrewing for over thirty years. There is a lot of knowledge and experience involved, so I would not dismiss it as a fad. My beers are across the board way better from a flavor, clarity and attenuation perspective.

I do not care how others' brew. We can all get along. These techniques are shared in a spirit of helping.

In the end, if you want to brew a German lager, low oxygen and sauergut are the tops imho.
You are missing the point. The question was literally "what needs to be done to get this German flavour?" And we all agreed that "lodo" is not on the list of necessities to get this German flavour.

That's it.
 

Bilsch

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You are missing the point. The question was literally "what needs to be done to get this German flavour?" And we all agreed that "lodo" is not on the list of necessities to get this German flavour.
That's it.
Everyone that has never brewed that way agreed it is not on the list.
That's it.

The thing you don't realize is.. no one in our group says, "how do I get that German flavor" anymore. Which makes it an interesting situation here where people ask repeatedly how do I solve for X and then dismiss help from those that have actually solved that problem.
 
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csantoni

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So here's my takeaway (it's my thread, so I'm going to summarize) in order of their likelihood to cause the "German" flavor:

1. Basic ingredients: German malts, hops, and yeast are probably the source of the flavor I'm talking about.
2. Slightly advanced ingredients: water profile, sauermalz, sauergut could contribute and either enhance or suppress the flavors from #1.
3. Process: decoction, temp control, LODO could enhance/suppress flavors but aren't going to add flavor that isn't present in #1 or #2.

I do some practical LODO steps in my brewing (spunding, closed transfers), but I'll be experimenting with most of the rest of this list before I try to go any further with it, especially hot side processes. I want to know what the right ingredients will taste like on my system (with some possible tweaks) and if I still haven't found it then maybe it's LODO.
 

dmtaylor

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I'm going to try the Diamond lager yeast. I'm hearing such excellent reviews of it from everywhere. Ordering some right now.

I mean, I've had great results with S-189. But still not quite exactly "that German flavor". Excellent lagers for sure, but not the same level of awesomeness.

I know "that German flavor" is possible without LODO. I've experienced it in many beers from friends who don't LODO brew. So that's why I'm still a skeptic. If it's a "cheater" method, it's not one I'm currently interested in as it's so effing complicated. But later, eventually, who knows.

Cheers to all who are on this same quest.
 

Bassman2003

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OP - yes, you are on the right track. Low oxygen practices try to preserve the original malt flavor. What needs to be stressed in this discussion, (and what I have come to learn) is that oxidation is a flavor. Once you can taste that flavor from its beginnings (not at the way far gone point of cardboard), you begin to see that oxidation flavor covers the true malt flavor. In some styles, this can act as a compliment. In pale lagers, it really stands out as a flaw compared to a fresh example had in-country.

Think of that Claritin commercial where the semi foggy scene is wiped away to clarity. Well, low oxygen beers do not have that early oxidation flavor. That + sauergut is fresh german lager in a nutshell. In my experience, my homebrew and most other homebrew has varying degrees of oxidation flavor. The quest is to rid the beer of these flavors, hot & cold side.

The other important point is very high attenuation - 80-84%
 
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csantoni

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In my experience, my homebrew and most other homebrew has varying degrees of oxidation flavor.
I totally agree with this. I started kegging because I thought I was detecting trace oxidation in my bottled batches. I'm fairly sure I was because I don't notice that dullness anymore. I even bottled a batch recently but did a lot to control O2 during that process (bottled from primary, primed and purged bottles individually, etc.) and haven't detected it. So, I'm not anti-LODO by any means but it's not where I want to focus right now.
 

Miraculix

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Everyone that has never brewed that way agreed it is not on the list.
That's it.

The thing you don't realize is.. no one in our group says, "how do I get that German flavor" anymore. Which makes it an interesting situation here where people ask repeatedly how do I solve for X and then dismiss help from those that have actually solved that problem.
We are talking about necessities here, things that you HAVE to do to get there. There are small breweries in Germany that do not care at all about this lodo stuff and they still make great beer. This means, lodo religion is not part of the NECESSARY things one has to do to get a good tasting German beer.

So please stop it. Each to his own, but do not try to sell the ideas that you are following for something that they are not.

This reminds me so much fo the whole "LISTEN!! LISTEEEEN!!! ARE YOU LISTENING!? I AM VEGAN AND I FEEL SOOOO MUCH BETTER NOW!!!" bs... sry mate, but I cannot stand this type of behaviour.

Now I won't post the threadabout the wired off flavour that I cannot get rid of, which shows up in about 80% of my brews... because everybody will tell me I need to lodo it away :D
 
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csantoni

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What do you think the areas are that you can improve upon?
Specifically for this German flavor concept I'll likely focus on ingredients and some process. German malt, hops, yeast and try some sauermalz. I will likely try a decoction on my next light lager although it's a Mexican lager so I'm not really trying to get German flavor but I've never done a decoction so it will be a learning experience.

Overall, I have a few areas of my process that I'd like to improve that don't require significant equipment changes.
1. Better control of my fly sparging. I haven't always maintained flow rates and water depth on the grainbed as well as I'd like and have taken the occasional efficiency hit.
2. Faster ramp to boil. I'm using a 110v Digiboil and it takes a while to go from mashout to boil. I'm thinking of adding a bucket heater to speed this up. I'm not sure what impact this might have on flavor but it seems like a possible place to improve.
3. Better cooling process. I probably need to get a counterflow chiller but I'm not quite ready to go there yet. I use an immersion chiller fed with cold water from a Penguin water chiller. It works ok but still takes 30 mins or so to get to pitching temps (longer for lagers). I also need to work on letting the cold break settle out so less winds up in the fermentor. I can't do a true whirlpool but I might try to do more stirring that I have done in the past.

There's a lot more I need to improve but those are the big ones I'm focused on right now.
 

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Kind of an offshoot, but related - try sampling the various base malts. I have, several times, brought my own ziplocs to the LHBS and put a small amount of grain in each. I pay for the total of course and everyone's happy there. Once at home I sample each and take notes of what they taste like, and what beers I think they do or don't belong in. I fully recognize that chewing grain isn't a substitute for a finished beer made with that grain, but I find it gets a start on it and gives some ideas. It's definitely helped my knowledge of them and how they affect the various recipes.

So, my suggestion is to consider sampling some of the base grains and see how maris otter compares to vienna, pils, and whatever else?
 

Bilsch

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We are talking about necessities here, things that you HAVE to do to get there. There are small breweries in Germany that do not care at all about this lodo stuff and they still make great beer. This means, lodo religion is not part of the NECESSARY things one has to do to get a good tasting German beer.
What has been mentioned here already but you fail to notice or understand are the scale effects that these small breweries enjoy that you nor I can replicate with our systems. The most glaring one being surface area. If you apply the square cube law to their vessels you would see they have the smallest fraction of exposed surface area per volume compared to our sized tanks and therefore are already a long way towards limiting oxidation in the mash. Other advantages they have are vormaischers, wet mills and underletting. This again giving them another level of protection.

You keep waiving your hand dismissing these concepts we talk about without ever really understanding what you are overlooking.

Cheers to the OP for being open to all schools of thought.
 

cyberbackpacker

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You are missing the point. The question was literally "what needs to be done to get this German flavour?" And we all agreed that "lodo" is not on the list of necessities to get this German flavour.

That's it.
The OP mentions these beers as beers demonstrating this "flavor" he/she is seeking:

Weihenstephaner Original
Paulaner Münchner Lager
Spaten Oktoberfestbier
Ayinger Oktober Fest Märzen

These are beers brewed on the most modern and sophisticated of equipment. These are not antique breweries using equipment from 30 years ago, let alone 50 or 100.

Focusing on fresh high quality ingredients, recipe and mash regimes constructed to achieve apparent attenuation of 84%, fermenting at temperatures from 48-52F, using a quality lager yeast and pitching at a ratio of 2.5m/mil, use of sauergut for mash pH control and at the end of boil to drop pH to ensure greater efficacy of kettle finings and for flavor contributions, oxygenating as high as perhaps 18ppm immediately before pitching yeast, and YES mitigating oxygen throughout the brewing process from strike water through packaging (more of a necessary focus for homebrewers due to the size of our vessels vs. professional) will get you the flavors the above beers deliver.

There are lots of levers brewers can choose to pull... the ones mentioned above will yield beers that taste like what the OP was drinking.

Perhaps just Sauergut (or maybe even sauermalz) in concert with good german ingredients will yield a result pleasing to the OP.

But again, some of the things above, and mentioned elsewhere in this thread, are offered as other levers that a brewer could choose to implement if results are not meeting expectations...

No mandates, but they are offered for folks to consider who don't think their beers are tasting as they would like them too.
 

jcav

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I must have my process down very well. I always have that German character in my German lagers. I use all German grain, noble hops and yeast. I do decoctions most of the time or a horkurz step mash. I pitch a large starter, use calcium chloride, ferment using temp control between 48 to 52 degrees, (depending on the recipe). I also have tweaked a beautiful hefeweizen that is decocted, and people I know who have had this style when they traveled to Germany have all commented on how authentic mine tastes. So I think it is totally possible to get this German character, and by doing these things and others commented in this thread, very attainable. Try some of these suggestions and hopefully you will get there!

John
 

Bassman2003

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Overall, I have a few areas of my process that I'd like to improve that don't require significant equipment changes.
1. Better control of my fly sparging. I haven't always maintained flow rates and water depth on the grainbed as well as I'd like and have taken the occasional efficiency hit.
2. Faster ramp to boil. I'm using a 110v Digiboil and it takes a while to go from mashout to boil. I'm thinking of adding a bucket heater to speed this up. I'm not sure what impact this might have on flavor but it seems like a possible place to improve.
3. Better cooling process. I probably need to get a counterflow chiller but I'm not quite ready to go there yet. I use an immersion chiller fed with cold water from a Penguin water chiller. It works ok but still takes 30 mins or so to get to pitching temps (longer for lagers). I also need to work on letting the cold break settle out so less winds up in the fermentor. I can't do a true whirlpool but I might try to do more stirring that I have done in the past.

There's a lot more I need to improve but those are the big ones I'm focused on right now.
Thanks.

2) - I would rather make a lid with a pie shaped door to let some steam escape. Thermal load is important to limit. Low boiloff rates are best. Your 110v system is actually a good thing but it is a pain to wait so long for temps. So add a lid and the times (and heat needed) go down.

3) Cold break settling is great. I let the chilled wort sit for 30-45 minutes before I drain to the fermenter. The Anvil Foundry I brew on has a rotating spigot which allows me to get clear wort out without the need for a whirlpool. I use an immersion chill with a rotating stir arm, as long as you settle, you can stir all you want. Recirc is tougher at this stage than stirring.
 

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Overall, I have a few areas of my process that I'd like to improve that don't require significant equipment changes.
1. Better control of my fly sparging. I haven't always maintained flow rates and water depth on the grainbed as well as I'd like and have taken the occasional efficiency hit.
Are you limited by mashtun size into having to do a sparge? If you can do a full volume mash it will greatly decrease the time and effort and possible oxidative damage by sparging. Grain is cheap, who cares if you have to spend a couple extra dollars on malt if the quality of your beer improves.
 

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I think you guys are completly missing that these big breweries are looking into keeping beer stable for as long as possible. If you dismiss this and only focus on the taste after the beer is actually done, most of this lodo crap falls away.
 

Miraculix

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What has been mentioned here already but you fail to notice or understand are the scale effects that these small breweries enjoy that you nor I can replicate with our systems. The most glaring one being surface area. If you apply the square cube law to their vessels you would see they have the smallest fraction of exposed surface area per volume compared to our sized tanks and therefore are already a long way towards limiting oxidation in the mash. Other advantages they have are vormaischers, wet mills and underletting. This again giving them another level of protection.

You keep waiving your hand dismissing these concepts we talk about without ever really understanding what you are overlooking.

Cheers to the OP for being open to all schools of thought.
I think you are romantizing Germany. Good luck with that. I live here, nothing romantic about it.
 

Bilsch

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I think you guys are completly missing that these big breweries are looking into keeping beer stable for as long as possible. If you dismiss this and only focus on the taste after the beer is actually done, most of this lodo crap falls away.
What you are missing is that there are other important effects from reducing oxidation in the mash besides improving long term stability. Yet again you dismiss 'this lodo crap' without understanding the details of what all is involved. I took the time to give you a list of good papers on the topic yet you ignore those and keep with your dismissive attitude.
 

Bilsch

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I am, and I enjoy the fly sparge process so I'm unlikely to change that right now.
A common method is to use a floating mashcap with a through fitting to introduce your sparge water while minimizing contact with air.
 

TheMadKing

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I started this same thread 3ish years ago and got the same responses. No comment on the lodo info.

This is just my personal take on it

I'm thoroughly convinced that what you are tasting (OP) is a beer that was brewed with fresh continental European ingredients, sound processes, a perfectly balanced recipe, and then bottled and pasteurized. I'm not sure if big breweries in Germany brew at high strength and then dilute to the desired abv like is done in many macrobreweries, but that may also be a factor.

The "German" quality that you're tasting is best described IMO as slightly metallic combine with "fresh wort". You can get the perceived metallic flavor by very high apparent attenuation combine with very good balanced bitterness from the hops.

The fresh wort part I haven't figured out yet. Bottle priming woth wort before pasteurization maybe? Or dilution with wort to achieve ABV? Pure speculation on my part

FWIW imported Belgians such as Duvel have a similar character, so it's not unique to German beers.
 
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I totally get what the people above mean by "german character". I drank a lot of beer over there.

I get it now, but it's taken many iterations to get it. I think the biggest thing is high yeast cell pitch count, high attenuation, low OG. FIlter/finings/lager to get rid of ALL suspended yeast. Ingredients are also important of course, and for pilsners EVERYTHING is important. Regarding the LODO zealots who can't accept no, I think they are right, that it does help. I haven't fully done it, probably never will, but I agree wholeheartedly in that it would improve beer. Cheers!

Well look at that... happen to have one right here, as a matter of fact :)

1632527324346.png
 

monkeymath

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The thing you don't realize is.. no one in our group says, "how do I get that German flavor" anymore. Which makes it an interesting situation here where people ask repeatedly how do I solve for X and then dismiss help from those that have actually solved that problem.
This is but a matter of definition: one can only be in "your group" by asserting that LODO techniques have completely changed one's beer for the better. Whenever someone says "I tried it and it didn't do much for me" the rabid dogs are let loose and everyone knows in advance a hundred things the poster did wrong ("What?! You did not brew during a full moon?! You have to follow the protocol to a tee, otherwise it does nothing, of course. You're a bad brewer and a bad person for blaming proven LODO methods for your own shortcomings!").

So yes, by definition, everyone in your group agrees LODO is the holy grail.

I'm not even saying you're wrong - I'm actually rather convinced low oxygen is important, perhaps even crucial, to achieving that "German lager taste". If I lived in a location where I could not buy these beers, I might even consider investing a ton of time and money to set myself up for LODO brewing. Until then, I'll raise my eyebrows ironically when LODO folks go out of their way to try and make something that tastes mass-produced. To each their own, I guess!
 

Miraculix

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What you are missing is that there are other important effects from reducing oxidation in the mash besides improving long term stability. Yet again you dismiss 'this lodo crap' without understanding the details of what all is involved. I took the time to give you a list of good papers on the topic yet you ignore those and keep with your dismissive attitude.
We are talking about what is NECESSARY to bring the German flavour. Many people managed to do this without following any of your lodo religion stuff.

If it is so damn scientific, I would ask myself the question "why am I And most of the other lodo guys personally offended if somebody doesn't jump on that train as well?".

I'm not dismissing anything here all I am saying is that you do not necessarily need this lodo religion stuff for bringing in the "German flavour". You understand that sentence? It is the key sentence here.

Actually, you do not need it anywhere, as suggested above, this whole lodo thing got way out of hand and it's becoming more like a morally correct thing to do, from the lodoists point of view. Not nice for anybody else.

If we could please go back to talking about reality and not about homebrewers made up religion, that would be nice.

Just to quote myself as you might have overread that:

... it would be far more beneficial if we would just skip this whole lodo thing and talk about single processes/ steps and how they affect the results instead. This also includes oxygen avoidance strategies of course, if necessary.
 
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Oleson M.D.

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I think you are romantizing Germany. Good luck with that. I live here, nothing romantic about it.
I have spent a lot of time in Germany over the last 20 years, mainly in the Frankfurt and Mainz area. Absolutely love Mainz! Last year we did an extensive vacation in Munich, toured the Spaten and Hofbrau breweries. That was a hoot!
 

Bassman2003

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We are talking about what is NECESSARY to bring the German flavour. Many people managed to do this without following any of your lodo religion stuff.

If it is so damn scientific, I would ask myself the question "why am I And most of the other lodo guys personally offended if somebody doesn't jump on that train as well?".

I'm not dismissing anything here all I am saying is that you do not necessarily need this lodo religion stuff for bringing in the "German flavour". You understand that sentence? It is the key sentence here.

Actually, you do not need it anywhere, as suggested above, this whole lodo thing got way out of hand and it's becoming more like a morally correct thing to do, from the lodoists point of view. Not nice for anybody else.

If we could please go back to talking about reality and not about homebrewers made up religion, that would be nice.

Just to quote myself as you might have overread that:
Miraculix, I have enjoyed your posts over the years as you do seem to have a lot of brewing knowledge. But I think you just need to calm down here. This is a thread about getting German lager flavor. The OP has not been offended by the suggestions. This is more about you than anything else. Nobody has pushed anything that says nothing else matters etc...

Low oxygen practice represents the last 10% of "getting there" imho. So there is a lot of process and technique still needed for the other 90%. Can you make nice beer with the 90% alone? Sure, we ALL HAVE. We are trying to share these cool techniques that DO improve the end result. Trying to help here. If YOU or anybody else does not want to do them then disregard and don't.

Trying to discredit and call things a cult or religious is just rude. I can tell you that what we as a group of homebrewers talk about is mainly sound brewing practice to replicate the world's great beers. Tell me what is wrong with that?

German ingredients, German style yeast and sound brewing practice will make a nice German style beer. To make a lager like the famous brand names, we have found one needs to eliminate oxygen exposure all the way up to pitching then all the way to consumption. Why and how do we know this? - because that is what the famous band name breweries do.
 

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