Tertiary needed for second yeast?

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schuwa

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So I made a first time attempt at adding a second yeast strain to the secondary just after I racked it for an Orval clone; it was racked about about week 3. While it appeared (I did not take gravity measurements) that after I racked it from primary to secondary to not be "visually" bubbling, I realize there was still likely some sugar that needed to be converted.

One thing I noted was that there is already, at about 1 week after the rack into the secondary, a pretty decent amount of sediment at the bottom of the carboy.

My questions are:
(1) Is it typical to get quite a bit of sediment with a second yeast strain? I would assume this is more a reflection of sugars still undergoing fermentation that yeast strain.
(2) Would there be any benefit in another rack into a tertiary carboy, and if so, when? I don't want autolysis, but I also am doing some dry hopping (put the pellets directly into the solution, not a bag), and don't want to miss out on the those flavors.

Thanks for the help.
 
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schuwa

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How long has it been in secondary? I wouldn't expect autolysis to be an issue within several weeks or more from pitching unless it's a large batch.
Not long. About 5 days. I'm not expecting autolysis now, but I was planning on keeping it in the secondary for about 2 months total before bottling it, and I've always heard anything over 1 month on a large amount of yeast sediment should be racked to avoid it.
 

Tinga

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What do you want to accomplish with the second yeast addition? Is it to ferment more sugars still present in the beer or just to bottle with?
 
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Not long. About 5 days. I'm not expecting autolysis now, but I was planning on keeping it in the secondary for about 2 months total before bottling it, and I've always heard anything over 1 month on a large amount of yeast sediment should be racked to avoid it.
Yeah, I know that's one point of view. I always try to rack off the yeast in a month or so. I have left some 5+ weeks with great results. I know some guys primary for 6+. I've read that with modern yeast quality, autolysis isn't an issue in smaller batches for quite some time. I've also read alot here about longer primary fermentation vs two stage fermentation that seems to support that theory.
 

COLObrewer

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I'm confused . . . . You could have done all this in the primary.:confused: Certainly any yeast SHOULD be added in the primary.
 
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schuwa

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What do you want to accomplish with the second yeast addition? Is it to ferment more sugars still present in the beer or just to bottle with?
From some reading I've done, and talking with the people at the LBS, there has been some suggestion that sometimes putting a second, different kind of yeast in the 2ndary will yield different flavors. Specifically, I was told that adding some Brett to the secondary is preferred to adding it to the primary to make the sour flavors more subtle.
 

COLObrewer

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OK, you're talking about brett, I thought you were talking about another sacc addition. You can add the brett at any point, I have also heard from some that late addition will make the sourness more subdued. I have no experience with late brett additions and I don't understand why this would be so, maybe you should post this question in the lambic section of the forum.
 

Tinga

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well technically brett isn't yeast but it does need some sugars to make those flavors. so if the primary yeast has eaten them all up there wont be much brett activity. you could add some after getting all the initial yeast out. but a crash cool then rack to secondary would be more effective of getting those yeastie beasties out than just racking again.
 

strat_thru_marshall

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well technically brett isn't yeast but it does need some sugars to make those flavors. so if the primary yeast has eaten them all up there wont be much brett activity. you could add some after getting all the initial yeast out. but a crash cool then rack to secondary would be more effective of getting those yeastie beasties out than just racking again.
Brettanomyces is, in fact, yeast.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Brettanomyces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brettanomyces

It is able to continue working after primary fermentation is completed by another strain because it is able to metabolize some of the dextrins/long-chain sugars that Saccharomyces cannot. Therefore, it picks up where the previous brewer's strain leaves off when pitched into secondary.

When pitched into secondary, the "brett flavors" will be more subtle due to the fact that it has less sugars to ferment and produce flavors. When primary fermentation is done with Brettanomyces, the flavors will be much more prominent.

For your Orval clone, let the Brett do it's thing in secondary for a few months before you mess with it. If you bottle before it hits terminal gravity (post-Brett addition), be sure you use very heavy glass bottles as it will continue to slowly ferment the dextrins in the bottle.
 
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schuwa

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For your Orval clone, let the Brett do it's thing in secondary for a few months before you mess with it. If you bottle before it hits terminal gravity (post-Brett addition), be sure you use very heavy glass bottles as it will continue to slowly ferment the dextrins in the bottle.
Thanks!

My plan is to leave it in the secondary for a good 3-4 months, bottle maybe around late October, and then try the first bottle at 6 months post-brew-day, which would be right around Christmas / New Years. I realize it may need a year or so to age, but I figure one bottle at that point will give me some sense of what the final product will taste like.
 

Tinga

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Brettanomyces is, in fact, yeast.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Brettanomyces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brettanomyces

It is able to continue working after primary fermentation is completed by another strain because it is able to metabolize some of the dextrins/long-chain sugars that Saccharomyces cannot. Therefore, it picks up where the previous brewer's strain leaves off when pitched into secondary.
This is what I was trying to say.....:eek:
 

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