Talk to me about manual vorlaufing.

[KingBrianI]

So I've been doing all grain for a while but can't seem to get one particular element ironed out: the vorlauf. I mash in a 10 gallon rubbermaid cooler with a stainless false bottom. No matter how much I manually recirculate, it won't seem to run clear. The method I use is to run off wort into a pitcher, then carefully pour the wort on top of the mash, trying not to disturb the grain bed. I've attempted this by pouring into a collander, into a bowl inside a collander, on a plate in the mash, on an upside-down plate in the mash, on a pie tin with holes punched in it, and several more I'm probably forgetting. Nothing seems to work. How is everyone else adding the wort back to the mash? After I recirculate the full pitcher (2 qt) about 8-10 times I give up and begin running off into the kettle. I've taken to putting a nylon mesh bag on the hose to catch all the big stuff, but all the little particles make it through. I didn't think it was affecting the beer, but I recieved a couple mentions of astringeny in the HBT contest so maybe the particles making it into the boil are causing problems. How do I get it to run clear??!

 

[flyangler18]

Are you milling pretty aggressively?

Fly-sparging, I gather, because you mention not disrupting the grain bed?

 

[KingBrianI]

standard gap on a barley crusher. conditioning the malt beforehand makes the situation worse.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Are you opening the valve multiple times while collecting? This will cause the initial rush each time you open the valve. I had your problem till I learned that, Now, once opened I collect till clear, move pitcher out of way and it drains into bucket. Then gently add runnings back.

 

[flyangler18]

If you're getting astringency, I wouldn't be so quick to assume the relatively minute amount of husk material getting into the boil is to blame, though.

When mentioning astringency on your scoresheets, did the judges identify a possible root cause? Were the beers in question heavily hopped? When I judge, I try to differentiate between hop-derived astringency that you might get in an IPA, for example, vs. tannins as a result of wonky mash conditions.

I suspect that a wort that won't clear may either have unconverted starches, but the particles slipping through might mean the false bottom may not be fitted properly?

 

[Scimmia]

A big ole hole in your false bottom? Even then, I'm not sure how conditioning could make it worse.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Could be your water profile as I believe flyangler was mentioning.

 

[KingBrianI]

Are you opening the valve multiple times while collecting? This will cause the initial rush each time you open the valve. I had your problem till I learned that, Now, once opened I collect till clear, move pitcher out of way and it drains into bucket. Then gently add runnings back.

Yes, I open and close it probably 8-10 times though doing it all at once wouldn't help as even when I drain into the kettle particles come through the whole time with a big rush of junk right as the siphon is lost at the end.

If you're getting astringency, I wouldn't be so quick to assume the relatively minute amount of husk material getting into the boil is to blame, though.

When mentioning astringency on your scoresheets, did the judges identify a possible root cause? Were the beers in question heavily hopped? When I judge, I try to differentiate between hop-derived astringency that you might get in an IPA, for example, vs. tannins as a result of wonky mash conditions.

I suspect that a wort that won't clear may either have unconverted starches, but the particles slipping through might mean the false bottom may not be fitted properly?

It sounded like more of a tannin issue than a hoppy astringency. I don't think it's unconverted starches, I average 85-90% efficiency on most batches (which might be causing problems too, I'm going to start doing one big batch sparge instead of two smaller ones). The small particles are most probably the flour from the grind. They come through constantly except for some wheat beers or decoction mashes I've done where that thick layer of muck forms on top which seems to filter them out. Larger particles come through frequently too though. The false bottom fits fine, but I do think it lifts slightly sometimes allowing grain to go around it. There is always some grain compacted under it after I empty the tun. It must happen during stirring.

A big ole hole in your false bottom? Even then, I'm not sure how conditioning could make it worse.

I get more particles coming through since the whole hulls from a crushed conditioned malt don't allow the grain bed to compact and the little bits slip right through.

Could be your water profile as I believe flyangler was mentioning.

I've been adjusting my water profile for a long time now (mineral additions and/or 5.2 pH stabilizer). I'm pretty sure it's not that.

Thanks for the help everyone! I really hope to get this thing figured out.

 

[KingBrianI]

How are other's pouring the wort back into the mash without disturbing the grain bed? I feel like if I could recirculate a few times without disturbing the grain bed I could get the wort to clear. But no matter how gently I try to pour it back in, and what I pour it on to disperse the stream, it seems that the grains get kicked up.

 

[electric_beer]

Perhaps you should try switching to a braid or a manifold? Sorry I'm not much help, but I've had a lot of success with my manifold...

 

[KingBrianI]

Perhaps you should try switching to a braid or a manifold? Sorry I'm not much help, but I've had a lot of success with my manifold...

I've considered it. If I can't find a solution that may be what I end up doing.

And flyangler, I just say where you wondered about whether I was fly-sparging. No, I batch sparge. Twice though I'm going to start only doing it once now. The second batch sparge may have been pulling tannins.

 

[conpewter]

how are you holding down the false bottom?

I pour (or pump) back on top of a tupperware lid I throw on top the mash.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

How thick is your grain bed? 4" is normally quoted as the minimum depth for an adequate filter bed in professional docs I have seen.

 

[KingBrianI]

how are you holding down the false bottom?

I pour (or pump) back on top of a tupperware lid I throw on top the mash.

I let gravity do the work. It's attached to the valve in the cooler with a short, pretty stiff silicone hose. Sounds like you do pretty much what I do for pouring it back in. Don't you find the grains start getting mixed up?

How thick is your grain bed? 4" is normally quoted as the minimum depth for an adequate filter bed in professional docs I have seen.

I've worried about that with my smaller beers before but I think even then I have more than 4". But the problem is still there even with the big beers that are way over 4", though it isn't quite as bad, just mostly.

 

[conpewter]

I let gravity do the work. It's attached to the valve in the cooler with a short, pretty stiff silicone hose. Sounds like you do pretty much what I do for pouring it back in. Don't you find the grains start getting mixed up?

I don't have issues with grain bits in the wort, I have a SS braid instead of a false bottom. I was just wondering if grain was sneaking under your false bottom, I know some people use a hose clamp on the pickup tube to hold the false bottom down so that grain does not get underneath.

I actually do have a false bottom in my keggle and nothing holding it down, but it only has to deal with hops (leaf) and I bottom drain from the keggle.

 

[ReeseAllen]

I use a manifold (copper pipe with ~2mm holes drilled into it) and the runnings from my MLT never run clear. Same story as the OP. I've given up on trying and now I just vorlauf for 2-3 pitchers until no visible solid particles come out, then drain the rest into the kettle. It's always cloudy, but it seems like most of the matter that's responsible for the cloudiness settles out by the time the beer has bottle conditioned for a week.

 

[LexusChris]

Greetings,

I have a setup which sounds very similar to yours.

I am doing a single batch sparge and moving the vorlauf bucket out of the way so that the clear runnings just go into the boil kettle just like IrregularPulse suggested. I then gently pour the vorlauf contents back on top of the mash, trying not to disturb too much of the grain bed.

My first two AG batches had astringency issues, then I started vorlaufing like this and it seems to have gone away. I also got a better control on my mash & fermentation temperatures... I think those contributed to my issues as well.

Hope that helps..
--LexusChris

 

[KingBrianI]

Greetings,

I have a setup which sounds very similar to yours.

I am doing a single batch sparge and moving the vorlauf bucket out of the way so that the clear runnings just go into the boil kettle just like IrregularPulse suggested. I then gently pour the vorlauf contents back on top of the mash, trying not to disturb too much of the grain bed.

My first two AG batches had astringency issues, then I started vorlaufing like this and it seems to have gone away. I also got a better control on my mash & fermentation temperatures... I think those contributed to my issues as well.

Hope that helps..
--LexusChris

Your setup is nearly identical to mine. After manually recirculating for several pitchers of wort, I move the hose to the kettle while it is still running from the last pitcher like you said. Doesn't seem to help me.

 

[OLDBREW]

Sounds to me that your false bottom isn't sealing properly, or the holes are too large for the crush you are using. Coolers have a tendency to warp using real hot liquids in them. Particles can get around the perimeter of the false bottom.

Some brewers have used a length of high temperature vinyl tubing and made a cut length-wise on one wall of the tubing then wrap the tubing around the curcumference of the false bottom. This makes a nice tight fit keeping the grist from getting around the false bottom.

When you vorlauf, partially open the valve so the flow is slow and start to fill your pitcher. When the pitcher gets towards being full, instead of turning off the valve just slowly raise your siphon hose up so it is higher then the level of the liquor. This will stop your flow. to start again just slowly lower the tubing. A saucer or small bowl on top of the grainbed should be enough to defuse the wort flow from channeling during volauf if you can't pour it slowly down the sidewall of the cooler. once you have clear wort flowing you can increase the flowrate to drain.

hope this helps

 

[flyangler18]

When you vorlauf, partially open the valve so the flow is slow and start to fill your pitcher. When the pitcher gets towards being full, instead of turning off the valve just slowly raise your siphon hose up so it is higher then the level of the liquor. This will stop your flow. to start again just slowly lower the tubing. Once you have clear wort flowing you can increase the flowrate to drain.

You've just described my process to a T.

 

[KingBrianI]

Sounds to me that your false bottom isn't sealing properly, or the holes are too large for the crush you are using. Coolers have a tendency to warp using real hot liquids in them. Particles can get around the perimeter of the false bottom.

Some brewers have used a length of high temperature vinyl tubing and made a cut length-wise on one wall of the tubing then wrap the tubing around the curcumference of the false bottom. This makes a nice tight fit keeping the grist from getting around the false bottom.

When you vorlauf, partially open the valve so the flow is slow and start to fill your pitcher. When the pitcher gets towards being full, instead of turning off the valve just slowly raise your siphon hose up so it is higher then the level of the liquor. This will stop your flow. to start again just slowly lower the tubing. A saucer or small bowl on top of the grainbed should be enough to defuse the wort flow from channeling during volauf if you can't pour it slowly down the sidewall of the cooler. once you have clear wort flowing you can increase the flowrate to drain.

hope this helps

Great info, thanks! I used to start slow but after complaining on here of wort that wouldn't clear someone told me I should go full-open from the start so I've been doing that with no improvement. I'll go back to starting slowly then opening up once it's clear. And the tubing around the false bottom is a great idea. I'll definitely be implementing that for my next brew day. Thanks again!

 

[JesseRC]

Going slow is the key. After mixing the grains, always allow a few minutes for things to settle, then vorlauf with a slow flow rate. Let things clear , then move hose into your bucket/kettle. I pour the wort that I have vorlaufed back into the mashtun over some aluminum foil that is floating on top. After a few minutes I will start increasing the flow rate.

 

[jeremyx]

How long do you find it takes to collect the wort? About 45-60mins for a 5 gallon batch?

 

[KingBrianI]

Going slow is the key. After mixing the grains, always allow a few minutes for things to settle, then vorlauf with a slow flow rate. Let things clear , then move hose into your bucket/kettle. I pour the wort that I have vorlaufed back into the mashtun over some aluminum foil that is floating on top. After a few minutes I will start increasing the flow rate.

I always do wait 5-10 minutes after stirring to start the runoff. Do you cut the aluminum foil large enough to cover the whole top or only part of it? Do you leave it whole or cut holes in it?

How long do you find it takes to collect the wort? About 45-60mins for a 5 gallon batch?

I can drain the whole tun in less than 5 minutes usually (per batch sparge or initial lauter). If it's a wheat beer or something that is stickier it could take up to 20-30 minutes.

 

[JesseRC]

I always do wait 5-10 minutes after stirring to start the runoff. Do you cut the aluminum foil large enough to cover the whole top or only part of it? Do you leave it whole or cut holes in it?



I can drain the whole tun in less than 5 minutes usually (per batch sparge or initial lauter). If it's a wheat beer or something that is stickier it could take up to 20-30 minutes.

I just tear off a piece of foil large enough to pour my wort over. On Monday I did a Stout that had flaked barley in it. It almost got stuck on my first wort collection. Then I realized I had opened her up all the way from the beginning. In my sparge, I started slow, then opened her up. It flowed perfectly . I use a braid though.