Table Rye Saison: Questions!!!

[Eschaton_YDAU]

I want to make a table rye saison: something really low ABV, about 2.7%. I still want it to have body, flavor, etc. I want it spicy, malty, grainy, roasty... and I want it to be red.

It's a tall order, maybe

I don't really know what I'm getting into, has anyone tried anything like this?

My idea is something like:

3.5 gallon batch

1 lb. American 6-row
1 lb. Carared 20L
1 lb. Flaked oats
1 lb. Crystal Rye 70-80L

1 oz. Saaz @ 60 min.
Wyeast 3711 Saison

Brewers friend calculators put this at 2.71% ABV with a high-attenuation yeast, and at 16.25 SRM.

My reasoning:

1. The 6-row is for diastatic power. Its enzymatic rating (160 Lintner) should cover the rest of the 0 Lintner ingredients. According to somebody's calculations (http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/) I should be at 40 Lintner for the mash, and 30 is the minimum.

2. I'm under the impression that flaked oats are the best addition for body/mouthfeel in terms of effect per pound, so I put them in. Maybe I should consider flaked or torrified wheat? That'd be a little more traditional. The caramel/crystal malts should help with body as well, I hope.

3. Any idea whether this will be red? The srm is about right, but it might get more toward brown, I don't know. Has anyone used carared?

4. I saw another rye saison that had rye as ~25% of the grain bill, so hopefully we're ok there. Any knolwedge about rye/crystal rye?

Any other thoughts on this weird little beer?

Please tell me why it won't work, or why it will taste bad before I make it!

Oh, and for the inevitable "why would you even make a low-alcohol beer, blah, blah, blah" types: I live in a place where people have to drive a lot to hang out. It would still be nice to give them a few homebrews. We'll call it DD beer

 

[Pappers_]

Way too much crystal and caramel malts in this recipe. Although I'm not familiar with crystal rye, I assume its a crystal malt, yes? This will be very sweet and cloying, I would imagine. While it would vary from style to style, as a general rule of thumb, you don't want to go over 5-10% of your grain bill with caramel/crystal malts.

Replace the crystal rye with plain old rye malt and reduce the carared to maybe 2-4 ounces and you'll be good to go.

You don't need 6 row, 2 row will work just fine.

 

[JKaranka]

You are trying a bit too much at once, some of the requirements being at odds. Saison yeast at that OG pretty much assures a thin beer. I'd consider a low attenuation yeast to bump up the grist by a third and end up with the same Abv but more body. Check out cereal killer by Tiny Rebel. 3% hoppy oat pale ale.

Much harder to make low Abv beers no matter how much people brag about imperials. Any brewery that impresses me with a sub 3% non-sour beer is on my good books.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

OK, this would be a very "distinctive" beer but very over the top. I do mostly low alcohol beers so I get the idea.

Drop crystal Rye to about 4 OZ and replace the rest with flaked or Rye Malt.
Cut the Carared in half and replace the other 1/2# with more 6-row.
Add 2-4 oz of Brown if you like for the toastiness.

I did that off the top of my head so slap it in your software and make sure it still meets your needs.

Be aware of two things:

Thus beer will be difficult to clear.
The mash is going to be REALLY gummy so unless you BiaB the sparge is going to really, really slow.

 

[badlee]

Use 25-30% rye malt. This will give you plenty of body,even at low OG.
That much rye can also give the impression of sweetness,even in a Saison that ferments down to 1.000!

 

[JKaranka]

Saison yeast, low abv, plenty of body. I think those three design targets are incompatible with each other. You can choose any two of them, though!

 

[BGBC]

Use 25-30% rye malt. This will give you plenty of body,even at low OG.
That much rye can also give the impression of sweetness,even in a Saison that ferments down to 1.000!

This, or some combination with flaked rye. Drop the crystals though.

Any reason it needs to be red?

 

[m00ps]

read this on bear flavored recently:
"Finally, for the love of god: keep your saisons dry. Stick to a simple, clean malt bill. Take any caramel malt you might find laying around your brewery out back, douse it in gasoline, light it on fire, dig a ditch, shovel the remains into the ditch, and fill the ditch with concrete. Then move somewhere else, because your property might now be haunted by caramel malt."

 

[specharka]

Holy hell. 75% adjunct? You want some beer to go with your sugar water?

If you want a flavorful table beer, use Munich or Vienna malt, not cara anything, and keep it between 15-25% of the total grain bill. Rye is fine for larger beers but will provide a distinctive bite that might be overwhelming in a table beer. Mash high and use a lower attenuating yeast to keep some malt backbone. And for the love of beer, no caramel malts!

 

[m00ps]

to be fair, thats basically 50% adjunct. Oats Wheat and Rye dont leave the residual sweetness of specialty malts

still, entirely undrinkable

I'd try this for a 3.5gal table rye saison:
1lb pilsner
1lb rye
0.5lb flaked rye
0.5lb flaked wheat

assuming saison yeast attenuation levels, comes in a bit under 3%

 

[Eschaton_YDAU]

I figured there was something horribly wrong with my reasoning, and this has been instructive!

I take it that the the sweetness, even watered down, would still completely throw off the balance (balance, now there's a concept!).

I will probably just mix some of the suggestions here with a lower ABV rye version of the saison I just made, which was:

6lb. belgian pils
1lb. wheat malt

Keep it simple...

Thanks for explaining how the goals I set were incompatible. You guys & gals are great.

 

[JKaranka]

I figured there was something horribly wrong with my reasoning, and this has been instructive!

I take it that the the sweetness, even watered down, would still completely throw off the balance (balance, now there's a concept!).

I will probably just mix some of the suggestions here with a lower ABV rye version of the saison I just made, which was:

6lb. belgian pils
1lb. wheat malt

Keep it simple...

Thanks for explaining how the goals I set were incompatible. You guys & gals are great.

That would be great for a regular strength beer. For low abv you want more body. Picky, I know.

 

[m00ps]

just mash high, like 155. that should keep the water body issue in check

also, yeast strain selection is important. All saison yeasts attenuate pretty high, but a few are known to impart contradictingly fullish mouthfeel. 3711 and Wallonian Farmhouse come to mind

 

[Eschaton_YDAU]

That would be great for a regular strength beer. For low abv you want more body. Picky, I know.

Ha!

That's exactly why I was going the crystal malt route. I'll most likely substitute in flaked rye and oats for some of the fermentables, with a touch of crystal.

But still try to keep it simple