SWMBO Wants BM Cinnamon Horchada Clone

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OneImpBrewery

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Looking for some specifics. Its Blue Moon. Came out this fall and was actually a pretty good dessert beer. Just not sure what I would call as far as a Wit or a Mexican lager style? I know its 5.5% and has cinnamon in it. Any help from there would be amazing.

Just a shot in the dark here. Let me know what you think

Fermentables

Amount Fermentable Maltster Use PPG Color
10.75 lb 2-Row (US) Any 89 % Mash 37 1 °L
1.0 lb Caramel/Crystal 20L (US) Any 8 % Mash 35 20 °L
0.25 lb Carapils (DE) Any 2 % Boil 35 1 °L
Hops

Amount Hop Time Use Form AA
0.6 oz Galena (US) 60 min Boil Pellet 13.0%
Yeasts

Name Lab/Product Attenuation
Safale S-04 Fermentis S-04 70.0%
Extras

Amount Name Time Use
1.0 tsp Cinnamon (Ground) 5.0 min Boil
Predicted Stats

Batch Size 5.5 gal Boil Time60 minEfficiency75.0%
1.060 OG 1.018 FG 23 IBU 5.5% ABV 4 SRM 0.39 IBU/OG
 

bway2141

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You might add some rice and/or lactose to mimic the horchata flavors. There's a lot of sweetness in the BM beer that you might not get with that grain bill.

What temperature do you plan to mash?
 

TheHappyHopper

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My wife wants me to make the same thing, but I have no idea where to start either...please keep this updated and let us know how it turns out.

I agree with the response above - I would definitely add some lactose for some sweetness, I'm not sure how much though...I have only used it in a cream stout before (1 pound for 5 gallons of beer), so I would start with 1/4 or 1/2 pound I think...

I wonder if adding any vanilla bean or extract would help as well?
 
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OneImpBrewery

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Thanks for the input. It seems like a lower body beer so I was thinking of mashing around 150-152. I haven't used rice or lactose before. I will re formulate a little later. I think the vanilla would be a great addition to smooth the cinnamon out.
 
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OneImpBrewery

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So here is the first test run.

According to BMs site(which could be full of BM) Only fermentables in it are 2 row and rice. Also IBUs are listed at 10. I really like the vanilla idea but I will leave that for the next batch which I will see about adding some caramel malt to as well.

I will add this to the agenda for my next weekend off. Any feedback or opinions would be appreciated.

Fermentables

Amount Fermentable Maltster Use PPG Color
10.0 lb 2-Row (US) Any 83 % Mash 37 1 °L
2.0 lb Flaked Rice Any 16 % Boil 40 0 °L

Hops
Amount Hop Time Use Form AA
0.5 oz Cascade (US) 60 min Boil Pellet 7.0%

Yeasts
Name Lab/Product Attenuation
Safale S-04 Fermentis S-04 70.0%

Extras
Amount Name Time Use
1.0 each Whirlfloc Tablet 10.0 min Boil
4.0 oz Lactose 10.0 min Boil
1.0 tsp Cinnamon (Ground) 5.0 min Boil
2.0 tsp Cinnamon (Ground) Addition Keg
8.0 oz Lactose Addition Keg

Predicted Stats

Batch Size 5.25 gal Boil Time60 minEfficiency70.0%
1.060 OG 1.018 FG 11 IBU 5.5% ABV 2 SRM 0.18 IBU/OG
 

TheHappyHopper

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Overall it looks pretty good starting point to me. Is there a reason that you are splitting up the lactose into 2 additions? I would think you could just add it all at once in the boil.
 
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OneImpBrewery

OneImpBrewery

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Mainly from inexperience. I went with the same schedule as cheesefood did with his caramel apple ale. Thought it would be a good starting place. I've never worked with it before and don't know what it will do boiled vs not boiled. Is there a big flavor difference?
 

TheHappyHopper

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I have no idea - somebody with more experience on using lactose would have to weigh in here - I have only used it in a Cream Stout recipe that I have done a few times, I just add it all at the beginning of the boil.

This is just speculation - it could be that boiling it for a period of time has some kind of carmelization effect on it, but I wouldn't think it would do much in 10 minutes vs 0 minutes as you have it now. I'm sure doing it in two separate additions wouldn't hurt anything (I'm just not convinced that there would be a benefit - I prefer to keep things as simple as possible).

Also, regarding the cinnamon additions - I'm wondering if it would be better to do cinnamon sticks rather than powder - that way you could leave them in for however long you need to get the cinnamon flavor you are wanting ("dry hop" them in for a week? Just leave in for the entire primary fermentation?). Also, since you're adding some at kegging time, it would be less crap that would settle to the bottom of the keg (I don't think cinnamon dissolves very well). I just bring it up because I bottle, and adding cinnamon at bottling time would be kind of a pain. Just a thought...maybe something to play with for future batches.

I'm anxious to see how this one turns out for you - I will definitely volunteer to tweak and make v2.0 after you see how this one turns out.
 
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OneImpBrewery

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Here is the 1.0 Version. The brew smelled great the entire garage smelled of cinnamon and milk. Thanks for the input TheHappyHopper, thats a great point on the cinnamon while kegging. I have cinnamon sticks that I will throw while its carbing.
I am still figuring out my system so the gravity came in lower than expected, also I switched up the yeast to what I had(US-05). 12 days left in primary then to the keg with it. Ill keep this updated.

-Imp

IMG_2925.jpg
 
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OneImpBrewery

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Soooo Its not exactly like it... But the Mrs and myself think that its better. The BM version tastes like a powered cinnamon in secondary or before bottling. It has more of a cinnamon bite to it.

This version has the cinnamon sticks in the keg which give it a very noticable yet smooth cinnamon flavor.(thanks for the advice TheHappyHopper)

I would do it again as it were. I am waiting to see if the beer clears with time or not. I added the lactose directly to the keg(good... bad... ? not sure? It tastes good). Bagged the cinnamon sticks and threw them in the keg at 72 hours it had a great taste to it. I left them in there for about a week and it does not appear to be getting stronger.

Fermentables

Amount Fermentable Maltster Use PPG Color
10.0 lb 2-Row (US) Any 83 % Mash 37 1 °L
2.0 lb Flaked Rice Any 16 % Boil 40 0 °L

Hops
Amount Hop Time Use Form AA
0.5 oz Cascade (US) 60 min Boil Pellet 7.0%

Yeasts
Name Lab/Product Attenuation
Safale US-05 Fermentis US 05 82.0%

Extras
Amount Name Time Use
1.0 each Whirlfloc Tablet 10.0 min Boil
4.0 oz Lactose 10.0 min Boil
2.0 tsp Cinnamon (Ground) 5.0 min Boil
2.0 whole Cinnamon Sticks Addition Keg
4.0 oz Lactose Addition Keg

Predicted Stats

Batch Size 5.25 gal Boil Time60 minEfficiency70.0%
1.060 OG 1.018 FG 11 IBU 5.5% ABV 2 SRM 0.18 IBU/OG

Let me know if you guys try it and how it turns out. When do you generally move the recipes to the recipes section?

-Imp

The Images: Left is the recipe above. Right is BM Cinnamon Horchata

Shot 01.jpg


Shot 1.jpg
 

TheHappyHopper

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Soooo Its not exactly like it... But the Mrs and myself think that its better. The BM version tastes like a powered cinnamon in secondary or before bottling. It has more of a cinnamon bite to it.

This version has the cinnamon sticks in the keg which give it a very noticable yet smooth cinnamon flavor.(thanks for the advice TheHappyHopper)

I would do it again as it were. I am waiting to see if the beer clears with time or not. I added the lactose directly to the keg(good... bad... ? not sure? It tastes good). Bagged the cinnamon sticks and threw them in the keg at 72 hours it had a great taste to it. I left them in there for about a week and it does not appear to be getting stronger.

Fermentables

Amount Fermentable Maltster Use PPG Color
10.0 lb 2-Row (US) Any 83 % Mash 37 1 °L
2.0 lb Flaked Rice Any 16 % Boil 40 0 °L

Hops
Amount Hop Time Use Form AA
0.5 oz Cascade (US) 60 min Boil Pellet 7.0%

Yeasts
Name Lab/Product Attenuation
Safale US-05 Fermentis US 05 82.0%

Extras
Amount Name Time Use
1.0 each Whirlfloc Tablet 10.0 min Boil
4.0 oz Lactose 10.0 min Boil
2.0 tsp Cinnamon (Ground) 5.0 min Boil
2.0 whole Cinnamon Sticks Addition Keg
4.0 oz Lactose Addition Keg

Predicted Stats

Batch Size 5.25 gal Boil Time60 minEfficiency70.0%
1.060 OG 1.018 FG 11 IBU 5.5% ABV 2 SRM 0.18 IBU/OG

Let me know if you guys try it and how it turns out. When do you generally move the recipes to the recipes section?

-Imp

The Images: Left is the recipe above. Right is BM Cinnamon Horchata
The color looks like it is spot on, just needs to clear a bit (which shouldn't be a problem in the keg).

Did you do anything to sanitize the cinnamon sticks? I have done some searching on this site and it looks like there are a couple of different methods that people use, or some people just toss them in without any sanitization.

How is the sweetness level compared to the BM version? Would you have gone more or less on the lactose?

I am going to try to make this next weekend.
The only changes I think I will make will be:
- I am going to scale down to a 2 gallon batch
- Just add all of the lactose at the last 5 minutes of the boil; since it's non-fermentable, I don't think it makes a difference when you add it?
- I can't decide on yeast, I have either Wyeast 1272 - American Ale II, or Safbrew T-58 (Belgian Ale) on hand that I could use...I am leaning towards the Belgian
- I will be bottling, so I will "dry hop" with the cinnamon sticks after the primary fermentation is done for a week before bottling.
 
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OneImpBrewery

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This version is a little sweeter than the bm version. The lactose could probably cut back a couple oz.

I just threw the cinnamon sticks in without sanitizing them and it was fine.

Both of your yeasts look like they would do great things. I'm liking the idea of the Belgian one. It will make a much more complicated tasting brew. Sounds great. Let me know how it turns out.

Cheers
 

bwidner

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Just came across this thread, wish I had found it sooner! I brewed this same beer back in feb(just like everyone else to the girl's request haha) I added the lactose to the end of the boil. I dont keg so only bottle and did a 2.5 gallon batch, IM going to need to make it again as she has made it through the majority of them. I am at work now but will post my recipe and notes so maybe we can help zero in on a perfect horchata beer!
 

bwidner

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4lb 6 row
3lb flaked rice
1lb carapils
1lb flaked oats
1lb 2 row

1 oz hallertau 60 min boil
12 oz lactose 10 minutes boil
2 cinnamon sticks 5 min boil

3oz vanilla beans 7 days in secondary
4 cinnamon sticks 7 days in secondary

Safbrew t-58 yeast

She thinks it is very very close, I detect a hint of smokiness, which I also detected in a vanilla cream ale I made, I am thinking of next time I do anythign with vanilla that I will use extract as it seems like the beans may be contributing this. Excellent beer, very sweet I think it is a little sweeter than the BM, so putting mroe 2 vs 6 row, and using extract vs whole beans would be the changes I make next time.
 

TheHappyHopper

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Here is what I have come up with based on the comments of everyone above that I will be making this coming weekend. I have adjusted quantities, etc., to work with my system:

Batch Size: 2.25 gallons

4# 2-Row
12 oz Flaked Rice
1/2 oz Acidulated Malt
1/4 oz Cascade hops
3 oz Lactose - final 5 minutes of the boil (Edited 6/10/15)
Cinammon - 1 tsp final 5 minutes of boil, 1 stick "dry hopped" for 1 week before bottling.
Vanilla Extract - 1 tblsp final 5 minutes of the boil
Irish Moss - 1/2 tsp, final 10 minutes of the boil

Water profile (after water additions):
Ca - 74 ppm
Mg - 5 ppm
Na - 28 ppm
Cl - 95 ppm
SO4 - 86 ppm

Estimated Mash pH: 5.63 (according to EZWater, I typically get about 0.1-0.2 lower for whatever reason)

Protein Rest - 20 minutes @ 120 F
Mash - 40 minutes @ 152 F
Boil - 60 minutes

Ferment @ 68 F (20 C) with Safbrew T-58

Assumed Efficiency 74.0%
1.061 OG
1.018 FG
13 IBU
5.6% ABV
2 SRM
0.21 IBU/OG

Let me know if you have any additional thoughts on things I should try.

Disclaimer: Regarding the protein rest, I realize that most people say it's not necessary, that it doesn't help produce a clearer beer with the "highly modified malts that are available these days" - but I have been having a hell of a time trying to get rid of the chill haze so I figure it's worth a shot. I am going to try it out on my next few batches and see how things go.
 

bwidner

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Here is what I have come up with based on the comments of everyone above that I will be making this coming weekend. I have adjusted quantities, etc., to work with my system:

Batch Size: 2.25 gallons

4# 2-Row
12 oz Flaked Rice
1/2 oz Acidulated Malt
1/4 oz Cascade hops
2 oz Lactose - final 5 minutes of the boil
Cinammon - 1 tsp final 5 minutes of boil, 1 stick "dry hopped" for 1 week before bottling.
Vanilla Extract - 1 tblsp final 5 minutes of the boil
Irish Moss - 1/2 tsp, final 10 minutes of the boil

Water profile (after water additions):
Ca - 74 ppm
Mg - 5 ppm
Na - 28 ppm
Cl - 95 ppm
SO4 - 86 ppm

Estimated Mash pH: 5.63 (according to EZWater, I typically get about 0.1-0.2 lower for whatever reason)

Protein Rest - 20 minutes @ 120 F
Mash - 40 minutes @ 152 F
Boil - 60 minutes

Ferment @ 68 F (20 C) with Safbrew T-58

Assumed Efficiency 74.0%
1.061 OG
1.018 FG
13 IBU
5.6% ABV
2 SRM
0.21 IBU/OG

Let me know if you have any additional thoughts on things I should try.

Disclaimer: Regarding the protein rest, I realize that most people say it's not necessary, that it doesn't help produce a clearer beer with the "highly modified malts that are available these days" - but I have been having a hell of a time trying to get rid of the chill haze so I figure it's worth a shot. I am going to try it out on my next few batches and see how things go.
I would think you want a bit more lactose, 2oz seems like it wont be much to sweeten it to obtain the same taste, whenever I make it again I am going to use less maybe 8-10 oz in a 5 gal batch, I would reccommend 3 or 4 oz for the 2.25 gal
 

TheHappyHopper

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I would think you want a bit more lactose, 2oz seems like it wont be much to sweeten it to obtain the same taste, whenever I make it again I am going to use less maybe 8-10 oz in a 5 gal batch, I would reccommend 3 or 4 oz for the 2.25 gal
I chose 2 oz based on @OneImpBrewery using 8 oz total for his 5 gallon batch (scales down to 3.6 oz for a 2 gallon batch), and he said it was a little on the sweet side - maybe I will start with 3 oz for this first go and then reduce it next time if needed.
 

bwidner

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He used 12 oz as did I in the first go around. The 8 oz was what he will be doing next time, and also the range I am thinking. That is why I suggested going with 3-4 oz, so you still get the sweetness but will be a lower concentration than the brews he and I both made prior. The original version would be 5.4oz breaking(using 5 gal batch and the 12oz both he and I used). So I think 3-4 oz will fall in the perfect range.

I chose 2 oz based on @OneImpBrewery using 8 oz total for his 5 gallon batch (scales down to 3.6 oz for a 2 gallon batch), and he said it was a little on the sweet side - maybe I will start with 3 oz for this first go and then reduce it next time if needed.
 

TheHappyHopper

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He used 12 oz as did I in the first go around. The 8 oz was what he will be doing next time, and also the range I am thinking. That is why I suggested going with 3-4 oz, so you still get the sweetness but will be a lower concentration than the brews he and I both made prior. The original version would be 5.4oz breaking(using 5 gal batch and the 12oz both he and I used). So I think 3-4 oz will fall in the perfect range.
Ok, now that I go back and look at the posts, I think you're right - I was looking at post #11 where he showed the finished beer, not post #6 where he listed the recipe he used the first time.

On another note...why isn't this weekend here yet? I have been antsy to brew this one for a few weeks now...:tank:
 
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OneImpBrewery

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Ok, now that I go back and look at the posts, I think you're right - I was looking at post #11 where he showed the finished beer, not post #6 where he listed the recipe he used the first time.

On another note...why isn't this weekend here yet? I have been antsy to brew this one for a few weeks now...:tank:
Hey Sorry for the delay in response, life got a bit more busy. Post 11 is what I actually brewed, I was looking at the 8 oz of lactose for the second addition and though it would be excessive. So I went with 4 instead. I think either way it will turn out great.
Your cinnamon will be smoother with this recipe. If you want the cinnamon kick(like the BM version) I would go with more cinnamon powder either boil or after fermentation.

Counting down the seconds until this weekend as well.

-Imp
 

h0psnobery

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I love horchata, so I will have to try this. Many of the horchata recipes include almonds as well as rice. What do you think would be a good way to incorporate that flavor into this brew? Ground almonds in the mash, almond milk in the secondary? Is this just a terrible idea?
 

TheHappyHopper

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Finally got around to doing a side-by-side comparison with the real thing. I did have to change my recipe a bit. The LHBS didn't carry flaked rice, so I went with flaked wheat instead. I might go with minute rice next time since I read that you can sub that for flaked rice.

Using the Belgian yeast, mine ended up surprisingly more clear. The Belgian yeast gave it a nice flavor - not really appropriate for a clone, but it is still good.

Overall color looks about the same.

BM seemed to have better head retention.

BM was a little sweeter, so I might just mash higher next time to compensate. My cinnamon level was nowhere near BM, I would probably double it next time.

Overall it turned out pretty good. Needs a few tweaks to make it a true clone, but by itself is not a bad beer.

tmp_26284-20150808_170455-201672802.jpg
 
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OneImpBrewery

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Hey missed your reply. Looks great! Thanks for the feedback.

I found that if I just leave the cinnamon sticks in there that it reached a pretty good flavor over over a couple weeks. I was thinking it would get stronger with time but it didnt. This last batch cleared quite a bit over time too. I have another batch to work through and I saved a BM to compare will let you know.

Cheers
-Imp

P1010950.jpg
 

Flyguy11

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Just emailed Blue Moon to see if they would provide me some information. I'll post their response.
 
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OneImpBrewery

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Awesome! Look forward to the reply. We just had a new addition to the family so SWMBO has not been able to drinkso I have not made this for a while. Interested to see what we can improve
 

RussPDX

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On the lactose I just add a few minutes before the end of boil. I pull off a little wort into a pyrex measuring cup and mix the lactose to disolve and then pour back in. Never had an issue. My only exp is in Stouts but I don't see why any other style would make a difference. You are not looking to break it down or anything, so simply a minute or two in the boil for sanitation should be sufficient.
 

geo1976

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Awesome! Look forward to the reply. We just had a new addition to the family so SWMBO has not been able to drinkso I have not made this for a while. Interested to see what we can improve
Did they ever reply?

Also regarding Cinnamon stick in the keg, they only release so much flavor. I make cinnamon whisky with whippets in whip cream containers, once they have given up what they have....they are done.
 
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OneImpBrewery

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Did they ever reply?

Also regarding Cinnamon stick in the keg, they only release so much flavor. I make cinnamon whisky with whippets in whip cream containers, once they have given up what they have....they are done.
Never got a reply and have not been able to brew much lately. I did a couple of kits that I got on sale but that has been it. Hope to revisit this again soon. I still don't have as much experience as most of the brewers on here so still taking suggestions to get this as close as possible.
 

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Hello all, not sure if anyone is still keeping an eye on this but I am currently fermenting a small batch of this and was hoping to get some input. I am still very new to brewing (this was my first batch that wasn't from a kit) so please bear with me. I more or less followed Imp's suggested recipe from his 4/24/15 post but scaled down for a 1 gallon batch.

2.0 lb 2 row US
0.5 lb flaked rice
Mashed for one hour in 3.25 qt and ended up with about 2 qts after, added 3 qts of tap water before boiling

0.25 oz cascade 60 min
1.0 oz lactose 10 min
1 Whirlfloc tablet 10 min
0.5 tsp ground cinnamon 5 min
1.0 oz lactose 5 min

Cooled down the wort and poured into a little bid mouth bubbler. Since it is a small batch and I have only ever done a primary fermentation, I wasn't planning on doing a second round with this so I threw in the cinnamon sticks in a muslin after soaking them in sanitizer for a couple minutes. Pitched in half a packet of Safale S-04 and sealed everything up. Here's what I have after a little over 12 hours of fermenting:

IMG_0844 (2).jpg


It looks like fermentation is underway but I'm surprised how much gunk is floating around. I guess there is still some time for everything to settle but it just looks off to me. Anyone have any thoughts on if I've messed up somewhere?

Thanks!
 
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OneImpBrewery

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Hey youafwog!
You've got quite a bit of gunk in there indeed. Congrats on your first non-kit brew! Looks like you pitched an entire packet of yeast in there right? After about a week of fermenting i'm hoping some of that gunk settled down for you. Looks like one epic yeast raft to me. How is the smell(out of airlock) and activity level? Should be close to gravity by now. Hoping for the best.

Cheers!
-Imp
 

youafwog

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Hey youafwog!
You've got quite a bit of gunk in there indeed. Congrats on your first non-kit brew! Looks like you pitched an entire packet of yeast in there right? After about a week of fermenting i'm hoping some of that gunk settled down for you. Looks like one epic yeast raft to me. How is the smell(out of airlock) and activity level? Should be close to gravity by now. Hoping for the best.

Cheers!
-Imp
Thanks for the input! I actually used just half a packet of yeast. There was quite a bit of activity initially, compared to another kit I am brewing that took a couple days to start up, but it looks like it has slowed down and a lot of the gunk has started to drop down. I couldn’t get too much of a smell from the airlock, good or bad (hoping that means I sealed it up well).

My plan is to keep fermenting until later this week (10-12 days fermentation) and then cold crash for a couple days to see if it helps everything settle down. Thoughts on that?

I’ll give an update once I get through the whole process.
 

Jsez444

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I’m trying this this weekend too! The BM is my wife’s favorite holiday brew and this will be her first time helping me. I am basically doubling one oh Happy Hopper’s recipes from above except I’m using extract. I will probably go a bit heavier on the cinnamon because I love cinnamon. Will update how it turns out.
 

youafwog

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Tasted this batch for the first time today.

It came out much lighter in color than the pictures posted earlier in this thread, I am thinking that might be due to it being my first all grain batch and I ended up adding some water after the boil.

The cinnamon flavor came through which I was happy about but it ended up being somewhat sour, not overwhelming but definitely noticeable. Made this one for my dad and he said it “wasn’t the worst beer he has ever had” so I guess there is some room for improvement lol.

Going to try a second shot at this.
 
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