Sweet saturating Pale Ale

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Alexholsch

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Hey guys so I've brewed my first 4 all grain Pale Ales, before this I had the chance to brew these same recipes in production breweries and did not have the following problem. All four of my brews have tasted a bit too sweet which messes with the drinkability of the beers, they taste a bit homebrewy like when I used to brew with extracts and no temp control/plastic buckets. This is obviously really annoying considering I am now selling these beers in a newly opened nano brewpub here in Mexico City. The recipes are the following (last two I brewed), they are brewed in a Brew-Boss system which allows me to maintain mash temperatures and what not and fermented in Spike Cf15 and SS 14 gal unitank with temp control and coils. I am pitching dry yeast straight from the package and doing two packets for each FV. Also worth noting I am still waiting on a H2O installation to bring my wort chiller online so as of now these beers have been brewed with the no chill method. I have hit my OG and FG gravities on all brews.

Cascade/Simcoe PA
5.9% / 13.5 °P
All Grain
BB60 Pale Ale
70% efficiency
Batch Volume: 28 L
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 18.93 L
Sparge Water: 19.94 L
Total Water: 38.87 L
Boil Volume: 33.61 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.048
Vitals
Original Gravity: 1.055
Final Gravity: 1.010
IBU (Tinseth): 43
BU/GU: 0.78
Colour: 17.7 EBC
Mash
Temperature — 66 °C — 60 min
Malts (7.01 kg)
6.3 kg (88.6%) — Avangard Pale Ale Malt — Grain — 5.9 EBC
350 g (4.9%) — Briess Caramel Malt 60L — Grain — 159 EBC
190 g (2.7%) — Weyermann Carapils/Carafoam — Grain — 3.9 EBC
170 g (2.4%) — Weyermann Acidulated — Grain — 3.5 EBC
Other (100 g)
100 g (1.4%) — Corn Sugar (Dextrose) — Sugar — 0 EBC
Hops (221 g)
21 g (20 IBU) — Simcoe 13% — Boil — 60 min
19 g (8 IBU) — Cascade 6.7% — Boil — 30 min
13 g (7 IBU) — Simcoe 13% — Boil — 15 min
28 g (4 IBU) — Cascade 6.7% — Boil — 5 min
28 g (1 IBU) — Cascade 6.7% — Boil — 0 min
28 g (3 IBU) — Simcoe 13% — Boil — 0 min
56 g — Cascade 5.5% — Dry Hop — 4 days
28 g — Simcoe 13% — Dry Hop — 4 days
Miscs
3.055 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
10.182 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
1.591 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Sparge
5.307 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Sparge
Yeast
2 pkg — Fermentis US-05 Safale American 81%
Fermentation
Primary — 20 °C — 5 days
Diacetyl/Flocc — 22 °C — 3 days
Dump yeast/dry hop — 18 °C — 1.5 days
Dry hop "free" rise — 20.5 °C — 3 days
Gelatin/Biofine — 0 °C — 2.5 days
FV/Keg — 5 °C — 2 days
Carbonation: 2.4 CO2-vol
Water Profile
Ca2+
134 Mg2+
0 Na+
8 Cl-
65 SO42-
237 HCO3-


Pale Ale #2
6.0% / 13.7 °P
BB60 Pale Ale
69.6% efficiency
Batch Volume: 24 L
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 16.39 L
Sparge Water: 17.42 L (2.29 L + 15.13 L)
Total Water: 33.81 L
Boil Volume: 29.44 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.048
Vitals
Original Gravity: 1.056
Final Gravity: 1.010
IBU (Tinseth): 40
BU/GU: 0.72
Colour: 17.1 EBC
Mash
Temperature — 66 °C — 60 min
Mash out — 75 °C — 10 min
Malts (6.07 kg)
5.35 kg (86.4%) — Avangard Pale Ale Malt — Grain — 5.9 EBC
240 g (3.9%) — Briess Caramel Malt 40L — Grain — 105 EBC
240 g (3.9%) — Weyermann Carapils/Carafoam — Grain — 3.9 EBC
120 g (1.9%) — Weyermann Acidulated — Grain — 3.5 EBC
120 g (1.9%) — Briess Caramel Malt 60L — Grain — 159 EBC
Other (120 g)
120 g (1.9%) — Corn Sugar (Dextrose) — Sugar — 0 EBC
Hops (138.3 g)
19.5 g (24 IBU) — Columbus (Tomahawk) 13.9% — Boil — 60 min
17.2 g (15 IBU) — Simcoe 12.3% — Boil — 30 min
17.2 g (1 IBU) — Centennial 8% — Boil — 0 min
8.5 g (1 IBU) — Simcoe 12.3% — Boil — 0 min
17.7 g — Centennial 9.1% — Dry Hop — 8 days
17.7 g — Columbus (Tomahawk) 13.9% — Dry Hop — 8 days
17.7 g — Simcoe 12.3% — Dry Hop — 8 days
7.6 g — Centennial 9.1% — Dry Hop — 3 days
7.6 g — Columbus (Tomahawk) 13.9% — Dry Hop — 3 days
7.6 g — Simcoe 12.3% — Dry Hop — 3 days
Miscs
2.4 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
10.8 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
1.44 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Sparge
6.492 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Sparge
3 g — Nutribrew — Boil — 15 min
Yeast
19.3 g — Lallemand (LalBrew) BRY-97 American West Coast Ale 80%
Fermentation
Primary — 19 °C — 4 days
yeast dump — 15.5 °C — 2 days
dry hop glycol off — 20 °C — 10 days
Cold Crash — 0 °C — 2 days
Carbonation: 2.4 CO2-vol
Water Profile
Ca2+
162Mg2+
0Na+
8Cl-
63SO42-
307HCO3-
16
Sparge until 5.8 L x Kg of grain @6.85 kg = 39.73 L


Please any help this is driving me crazy I can't even sleep.
 

RM-MN

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Just thoughts, not answers to your question:
1. Can you replace all or some of the base malt with pale malt, brewers malt, or Pilsen malt. The pale ale malt is not the same and may increase the perceived sweetness.
2. Are you certain of the mash temperature or could you have some variation in the temperature in the mash vessel. If some of the mash is hotter it can lead to a less fermentable wort. The addition of the Caramel malts add color, flavor and sweetness to the beer.
3. Are you really getting 43 IBU's? Maybe move the first addition of Cascade from 30 minutes to 60 and maybe the second addition of Simcoe from 15 minutes to 5 minutes. Also maybe increase the amount of Simcoe in the 60 minute addition. All of these suggestions apply to the first recipe but the concepts apply to all beers.
 
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Alexholsch

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Thanks bro! I agree with your thought and had very similar ones. I had thought to reduce the caramel malts and increase bitterness by moving around my additions. Im trying this out today to see what happens, it still trips me out though how much difference there is between these beers and the ones I brewed in a 15 BBL brewhouse. So now I am brewing two different batches to test some ideas out. First batch will be with CERO caramel malts and same hop additions. Second batch I will reduce my Carmel malts, probably reduce Caramel 40 by 80% and maybe add 10% more Caramel 60 to try and stay close to the same color range, which I really liked. Hopefully this will give me more insight into where my problem is. Im pretty sure it is not fermentation because im hitting my FG´s but who knows I might be wrong.
 
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Alexholsch

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Oh and I am pretty sure my mash temps are on point I have a digital thermometer probe and it will start boiling as I reach 98-99 C (I am at a bit of a high altitude). But I will definitely double check today with another thermometer
 

GoodTruble

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If all the beers are coming out too sweet, can you just adjust the mashing temps down a bit? That would seem to be an easy fix to lower the sweetness across the board.
 
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Alexholsch

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Yes I agree but Im already mashing at 153, im leaning more towards scaling. So im scaling down recipes from 15 bbl brewhouse to 14 gal. I will definitely try a third batch with no modification to the recipe except lower mash temp. Will Leto you know in a couple of weeks how these experiments turned out.
 

RM-MN

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Oh and I am pretty sure my mash temps are on point I have a digital thermometer probe and it will start boiling as I reach 98-99 C (I am at a bit of a high altitude). But I will definitely double check today with another thermometer
I have had a digital thermometer that was non-linear. You might need to check against a different thermometer in case yours does this too.
 

hotbeer

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Question for all you more knowledgeable types...

Isn't there something about mash thickness affecting the enzymatic action going on and even at lower temps and even the temp the OP used, there might be more unfermentable sugars made if the mash is too thin?
 

sibelman

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There's another thread about scaling (down from commercial to nano/home) of recipes, and the effect of darker malts.


Some of the thoughts I read there make me wonder if even the crystal may come forward more than desired with a straight proportional downsized grain bill.
 

CascadesBrewer

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So im scaling down recipes from 15 bbl brewhouse to 14 gal.

I wonder if there is just a different level of IBUs between the two systems. The times that I have brewed on commercial systems, the huge difference that stands out to me is the length of transfer operations. A brewery might do a "10 minute" whirlpool, but they have wort at high temps for 30+ minutes while the wort is transferred through the heat exchanger. In this case I am not sure where the "no chill" plays in, as that often leads to higher bitterness.
 
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Alexholsch

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mashed a couple degrees higher, treated my yeast better and added a bit more dextrin (Carapils) worked pretty good. Im also incorporating low oxygen techniques which, from my perception, is helping increase malt character. If I where to just apply one of these im thinking the low oxygen gave the biggest difference. People will probably disagree
 
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Alexholsch

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mashed a couple degrees higher, treated my yeast better and added a bit more dextrin (Carapils) worked pretty good. Im also incorporating low oxygen techniques which, from my perception, is helping increase malt character. If I where to just apply one of these im thinking the low oxygen gave the biggest difference. People will probably disagree
correct lowered the mash temp not increased
 

Bobby_M

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When you got the hot wort into the fermenters and allowed them to cool down, did you do that with some low CO2 pressure applied? If you didn't, you sucked oxygen in.

How do you transfer from FV to kegs? You should fill the kegs with starsan to the top, then push it out with CO2 prior to filling. Also need to put CO2 on the top of the FV to back fill the headspace.

Either of those can bring oxygen in that will crush hop character and make the beers taste cloying.
 
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Alexholsch

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When you got the hot wort into the fermenters and allowed them to cool down, did you do that with some low CO2 pressure applied? If you didn't, you sucked oxygen in.

How do you transfer from FV to kegs? You should fill the kegs with starsan to the top, then push it out with CO2 prior to filling. Also need to put CO2 on the top of the FV to back fill the headspace.

Either of those can bring oxygen in that will crush hop character and make the beers taste cloying.
Thanks! im no longer cooling in the FV and have been flushing with co2 for the last 2 months or so.
 
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