Super Hoppy IPA Recipe Help

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BrewByBerg

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Hey guys,

I'm trying to brew in a bag and make a super hoppy, crisp, dry, IPA. I am not a huge fan of malty IPAs, which is why I'm focusing on 2row malt. Attached is my beer smith recipe.

My one question is will I be able to just use 2row malt and carapils for a super light IPA? Please let me know your thoughts! Thanks

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1430201840.003607.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1430201852.235141.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1430201861.752951.jpg
 
I added in San Diego super yeast from white labs which dropped my FG to 1.009
 
Personally, I'd lose the crystal malt, especially if you want a crisp finish. I like some malt character but don't really like sweetness.

Also, you need to charge your phone...
 
Maybe it's just me, but I don't consider 85 IBUs "super hoppy" anymore :)

I just brewed the Heady Topper clone recipe and the bittering addition is 120 IBUs alone. The total recipe calculated out to 215 IBUs, but it adds a bunch of IBUs for whirlpool hops.

That would be one of the things I recommend. I'd move all the 0 min hops to whirlpool hops. And maybe even some of the 15, 10 and 5 min hops too.

I would also remove the crystal. I've done an all base malt DIPA with added dextrose and it comes out great.

Also make sure to get the sulfate up.
 
The IBU number itself is good, I think - you're looking at a 1.2 for your BU:GU ratio, and typically I aim for 1.0 or 1.1 and get nice hoppy IPA's. But since you're relying so heavily on late additions, a LOT of those IBU's you're seeing are perceived bitterness and not "actual" bitterness. I have to admit that I have no idea if that would shift where you want the BU:GU ratio - it'd be interesting to find out though. Personally, I'd be tempted to keep the IBU's right where they were, but shift a small portion (20-30% of your IBU's?) to a 60 minute or first-wort hop. I've had great success with first-wort hopping at around 25% or so of my IBU's, then a massive 5 minute or flameout addition, then dry hopping (this is a method Mitch Steele recommended in a seminar at NHC a couple years back).
 
  • For my tastes, and given the way most clone recipes for top IIPA examples are structured, 0-5% pale crystal malt (10-40L) in an IIPA works best.

  • Your hopping schedule would benefit from extreme revamping. It is quite muddled, tedious, and non-sensical as is, which will not lend the optimal flavor and aroma.

  • BU:GU ratio is essentially meaningless for intensly hoppy IIPAs. Regardless of whether your beer is 200-300+ IBUs, the human palate cannot sense over 90-100 IBUs. Also, very hoppy IIPAs like Heady and Pliny were lab-tested to be about 80-90 IBUs. So again, don't stress about IBUs when making an IIPA.

  • High yeast attenuation is key for this style. You want to do everything in your ability to allow the yeast to attenuate as much as possible. This includes mashing low and long, substituting a portion of base malt for simple sugar, effectively oxygenating the wort prior to fermentation, etc. This will boost dryness. Another thing that will really help with dryness is to nail your water profile, especially sulfate.

  • While First Wort Hop (FWH) is not necessarily a useless technique, I personally believe it is a poor move for the American IIPA style. It works better for German Pilsners. While the technique offers slightly more IBUs, it also offers lower concentrations of flavoring/aromatic compounds than control beers with a traditional bittering addition. For me, FWH fundamentally destroys any type of hop bite in an IIPA. In the end, you have to remember that the IIPA is an inherently bitter style of beer that shouldn't be tamed. If you want tame and hoppy, brew an APA.
 
  • For my tastes, and given the way most clone recipes for top IIPA examples are structured, 0-5% pale crystal malt (10-40L) in an IIPA works best.




  • Your hopping schedule would benefit from extreme revamping. It is quite muddled, tedious, and non-sensical as is, which will not lend the optimal flavor and aroma.




  • BU:GU ratio is essentially meaningless for intensly hoppy IIPAs. Regardless of whether your beer is 200-300+ IBUs, the human palate cannot sense over 90-100 IBUs. Also, very hoppy IIPAs like Heady and Pliny were lab-tested to be about 80-90 IBUs. So again, don't stress about IBUs when making an IIPA.




  • High yeast attenuation is key for this style. You want to do everything in your ability to allow the yeast to attenuate as much as possible. This includes mashing low and long, substituting a portion of base malt for simple sugar, effectively oxygenating the wort prior to fermentation, etc. This will boost dryness. Another thing that will really help with dryness is to nail your water profile, especially sulfate.




  • While First Wort Hop (FWH) is not necessarily a useless technique, I personally believe it is a poor move for the American IIPA style. It works better for German Pilsners. While the technique offers slightly more IBUs, it also offers lower concentrations of flavoring/aromatic compounds than control beers with a traditional bittering addition. For me, FWH fundamentally destroys any type of hop bite in an IIPA. In the end, you have to remember that the IIPA is an inherently bitter style of beer that shouldn't be tamed. If you want tame and hoppy, brew an APA.


I appreciate the input, what type of hop schedule would you suggest?
 
  • For my tastes, and given the way most clone recipes for top IIPA examples are structured, 0-5% pale crystal malt (10-40L) in an IIPA works best.




  • Your hopping schedule would benefit from extreme revamping. It is quite muddled, tedious, and non-sensical as is, which will not lend the optimal flavor and aroma.




  • BU:GU ratio is essentially meaningless for intensly hoppy IIPAs. Regardless of whether your beer is 200-300+ IBUs, the human palate cannot sense over 90-100 IBUs. Also, very hoppy IIPAs like Heady and Pliny were lab-tested to be about 80-90 IBUs. So again, don't stress about IBUs when making an IIPA.




  • High yeast attenuation is key for this style. You want to do everything in your ability to allow the yeast to attenuate as much as possible. This includes mashing low and long, substituting a portion of base malt for simple sugar, effectively oxygenating the wort prior to fermentation, etc. This will boost dryness. Another thing that will really help with dryness is to nail your water profile, especially sulfate.




  • While First Wort Hop (FWH) is not necessarily a useless technique, I personally believe it is a poor move for the American IIPA style. It works better for German Pilsners. While the technique offers slightly more IBUs, it also offers lower concentrations of flavoring/aromatic compounds than control beers with a traditional bittering addition. For me, FWH fundamentally destroys any type of hop bite in an IIPA. In the end, you have to remember that the IIPA is an inherently bitter style of beer that shouldn't be tamed. If you want tame and hoppy, brew an APA.


Thanks for the input, what type of hop schedule would you suggest?
 
In most homebrewing cases for IPAs, I would recommend:


  • 60/10/0/Dryhop (If you opt for a lower bittering charge and a late boil addition)

    or

  • 60/0/Dryhop (If you opt for a high bittering charge and a larger hopstand)

^Not FWH'd



0 minutes could mean:


  • Direct flameout (isomerization continues until 175F, good balance of bittering and aroma contributions, normal aromatic loss due to high heat)
  • A post-boil addition when the wort is 180-185F (alpha acids are still somewhat isomerizing but not by much, minimal aromatic loss)
  • A post-boil addition when the wort is 165F (isomerization has stopped, but the delicate oils are not boiled off, myrcene compound in hops persevere)


It all depends on your goals. A combo of direct flameout and either 180F or 165F works best for me (minimum 20 minutes contact). Think of it this way: Hot hop additions (boiling or close to it), Warm hop additions (post-boil 180F or lower), Cold hop additions (the dry hop).... Adding hops at these three different temperature ranges will allow you to harness their optimal potential and offer the most complexity in the final IPA.
 
I agree with others here, lose the crystal, and simplify the hop schedule. Last DIPA I did had 1oz of high alpha% hops at 60min, then a pound dumped in right at the end followed by a half hour hopstand. It also accidently got dry hopped in the keg for 4 months, but was I promise it was far and away the hoppiest thing I've made so far before that happened too
 
Personally I like using a FWH for my IPA's. It really depends on what kind of bitterness you are going for in the beer. A traditional 60 min bittering addition will give you a harsher bitterness than a FWH addition will. To me an IPA shouldn't just be bitter, an IPA should be a showcase in hop flavor. If you are looking for a traditionally bitter IPA then by all means go with the 60 min addition.

I'd move your 60 min hops to FWH, then move all of your 10 min additions to the 15 min additions and all of the 5 and 0 min additions to a whirlpool/hop stand edition (20 min @ 180F-ish, lid on), your dry hop looks fine. Right now you've got 60/15/10/5/0/dry hop, I'd change it to FWH/15/hop stand/dry hop. This will give you a bitter backbone to counter the sweetness of the malt and a ton of hop flavor.

Also lose the crystal, or at least reduce it, if you are looking for a crisp, dry finish.
 
A traditional 60 min bittering addition will give you a harsher bitterness than a FWH addition will.

No, it won't... If done correctly. FWH is one way out of many to subdue that bitter hop bite (even though FWH actually provides slightly more IBUs). It is important to realize that acrid harshness does not equal bitterness. There are several examples of traditionally bittered IPAs whereupon there is no apparent acrid harshness. That harshness is actually due to the polyphenols in the hops, which can be controlled via brewing. If the brewer does not effectively know how to limit polyphenols, then that acrid harshness (unrelated to pleasant, inherent bitterness of an IPA) will be quite prevalent in the final beer.

To me an IPA shouldn't just be bitter, an IPA should be a showcase in hop flavor.

There are ways to accomplish both goals. You make it seem like you can either have one or the other and that FWH is the only way to correct it. This is false. When analyzed in a lab, beers that that were FWHd contained lower concentrations of flavoring/aromatic compounds than control beers with a traditional bittering addition.
 
There are ways to accomplish both goals. You make it seem like you can either have one or the other and that FWH is the only way to correct it. This is false. When analyzed in a lab, beers that that were FWHd contained lower concentrations of flavoring/aromatic compounds than control beers with a traditional bittering addition.

Hey to each their own. The simplest way I've found to get a pleasant, "smooth" and "round" (for lack of a better term) bitterness has been a FWH. You enjoy your 60 min addition, I enjoy my FWH. I am by no means advocating that my post is the only way to achieve the goal. I am telling the OP what I enjoy in my IPA's and the best method I have found of achieving that flavor profile. I wasn't intending for my post to be taken as gospel as the only way to hop an IPA.
 
No, it won't... If done correctly. FWH is one way out of many to subdue that bitter hop bite (even though FWH actually provides slightly more IBUs). It is important to realize that acrid harshness does not equal bitterness. There are several examples of traditionally bittered IPAs whereupon there is no apparent acrid harshness. That harshness is actually due to the polyphenols in the hops, which can be controlled via brewing. If the brewer does not effectively know how to limit polyphenols, then that acrid harshness (unrelated to pleasant, inherent bitterness of an IPA) will be quite prevalent in the final beer.

I am actually quite curious if you can expand upon this for me. How is the 60 min addition done correctly? You can add me to the list of brewers who do not know how to effectively limit polyphenols with a 60 min addition. I have never had a 60 min addition that was as smooth tasting as a FWH addition, how would you go about controlling it?
 
i am actually quite curious if you can expand upon this for me. How is the 60 min addition done correctly? You can add me to the list of brewers who do not know how to effectively limit polyphenols with a 60 min addition. I have never had a 60 min addition that was as smooth tasting as a fwh addition, how would you go about controlling it?

+1
 
Interesting that this come up. The latest beersmith podcast had Denny Conn on and he basically said in his controlled test, there was no statistical difference between a fwh beer and a 60 minute addition in a taste panel. There was an analytical difference of 10% higher ibu for the fwh beer. With that said some people did prefer the fwh beer and some preferred the 60 min addition beer. Again not statistical significantly different but a preference. So he said he still will use fwh because it's easy. So basically, it sounds like everyone should try it themselves and decide for themselves.
 
I am actually quite curious if you can expand upon this for me. How is the 60 min addition done correctly? You can add me to the list of brewers who do not know how to effectively limit polyphenols with a 60 min addition. I have never had a 60 min addition that was as smooth tasting as a FWH addition, how would you go about controlling it?

Well, the most obvious method would be to use less hops for your bittering charge, but this amendment would depend on the OG and the rest of the recipe design. The second would be to incorporate larger late boil or post-boil hop additions to offer smoother bitterness along with a perceived sweetness from all of those juicy/fruity flavors and aromas.

On more of a scientific level...

Vigorous and violent boiling of wort helps to coagulate unstable proteins. The harsh polyphenols in hops are very eagerly attracted to the non-coagulated protein which is present in the kettle during early boil. After a successful boil is complete, these proteins have binded with much of the polyphenols, and have become so heavy that they drop to form much of the trub you see in an IPA with a ton of kettle hops. Any polyphenol harshness sensed on the palate is likely due to: 1) transferring all of that trub to the primary, 2) poor hot break/insufficient rolling boil, and/or 3) boiling the hops for too long (one hour max). Boiling the hops longer than one hour will start generating sharp, undesirable and unpleasant flavors.

My suggestion is to allow the wort to boil for 15-30 minutes before even thinking about adding any hops. Tannins/polyphenols from the hops willl then be more effectively eliminated in the hot break. Once the hops are bound up with protein, there is much less surface area exposed, hence much less alpha acid to isomerize. The result is that you will have a smoother IPA with plenty of IBUs to combat the juicy late hops, but without any of that rough tannin harshness. Certain products like Clarity Ferm will help to prevent the precipitation of polyphenols and proteins by hydrolyzing the sensitive (haze-active) polypeptides in the region where such hydrogen bonding occurs. If you notice that your IPAs always struggle from chill haze, then making attempts to correct it will not only make your beer clearer, but it will cut down on much of that harsh astringency you sense as well.

Interesting that this come up. The latest beersmith podcast had Denny Conn on and he basically said in his controlled test, there was no statistical difference between a fwh beer and a 60 minute addition in a taste panel. There was an analytical difference of 10% higher ibu for the fwh beer. With that said some people did prefer the fwh beer and some preferred the 60 min addition beer. Again not statistical significantly different but a preference. So he said he still will use fwh because it's easy. So basically, it sounds like everyone should try it themselves and decide for themselves.

There are so many variables at play here that can skew the results of tests like these. Even if the base recipe is the same and the only thing you're testing is FWH vs. Traditional Bitter, you still have to account for the amount of hops used, the age of the hops, whether the yeast choice or the grist is detracting enough to negate the subtle differences in hop character, the unique processes of the brewer, etc. Also, the judges/tasters for these at home tests are not always certified Cicerones. I work in the chef industry and my clients cannot discern a raspberry pie from a strawberry pie, or cod from haddock... I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't distinguish a FWHd beer from one that was traditionally bittered. I would imagine that more often than not, they would have no clue.
 
This is good stuff. Thanks @bobbrews!

Actually thanks to all on this thread. Good discussion.
 
Well, the most obvious method would be to use less hops for your bittering charge, but this amendment would depend on the OG and the rest of the recipe design. The second would be to incorporate larger late boil or post-boil hop additions to offer smoother bitterness along with a perceived sweetness from all of those juicy/fruity flavors and aromas.



On more of a scientific level...



Vigorous and violent boiling of wort helps to coagulate unstable proteins. The harsh polyphenols in hops are very eagerly attracted to the non-coagulated protein which is present in the kettle during early boil. After a successful boil is complete, these proteins have binded with much of the polyphenols, and have become so heavy that they drop to form much of the trub you see in an IPA with a ton of kettle hops. Any polyphenol harshness sensed on the palate is likely due to: 1) transferring all of that trub to the primary, 2) poor hot break/insufficient rolling boil, and/or 3) boiling the hops for too long (one hour max). Boiling the hops longer than one hour will start generating sharp, undesirable and unpleasant flavors.



My suggestion is to allow the wort to boil for 15-30 minutes before even thinking about adding any hops. Tannins/polyphenols from the hops willl then be more effectively eliminated in the hot break. Once the hops are bound up with protein, there is much less surface area exposed, hence much less alpha acid to isomerize. The result is that you will have a smoother IPA with plenty of IBUs to combat the juicy late hops, but without any of that rough tannin harshness. Certain products like Clarity Ferm will help to prevent the precipitation of polyphenols and proteins by hydrolyzing the sensitive (haze-active) polypeptides in the region where such hydrogen bonding occurs. If you notice that your IPAs always struggle from chill haze, then making attempts to correct it will not only make your beer clearer, but it will cut down on much of that harsh astringency you sense as well.







There are so many variables at play here that can skew the results of tests like these. Even if the base recipe is the same and the only thing you're testing is FWH vs. Traditional Bitter, you still have to account for the amount of hops used, the age of the hops, whether the yeast choice or the grist is detracting enough to negate the subtle differences in hop character, the unique processes of the brewer, etc. Also, the judges/tasters for these at home tests are not always certified Cicerones. I work in the chef industry and my clients cannot discern a raspberry pie from a strawberry pie, or cod from haddock... I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't distinguish a FWHd beer from one that was traditionally bittered. I would imagine that more often than not, they would have no clue.



Thanks for everything guys! I've usually always done a 90 min boil, 30 minutes of boiling the wort, then at at 60 min mark begin the hop schedule. So I think I'll use all 2 row malt, but should I still use carapils? And I plan on using the half pound of hops, I use a hop spyder, that helps tremendously with the trub
 
I like to use carapils with 2 row. Feel I get a better head with it in the grist. I use it > 5%.
 
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