Super fast primary fermentation, is this even possible?

[zadamxtr]

I've just set a small (8L or so) batch of cider to ferment after having a break from cider making for about 10 years.

I used some general white wine yeast, some yeast nutrient, approx 8L of store bought apple juice (checked that it was just juice, and no preservatives).

I set it to go 4 days ago, and it already seems "finished". airlock was going strong for the first few days, started bubbling already after only 8 hours or so. But the airlock stopped it's action yesterday, and I checked the gravity yesterday and today, both are at exactly 1.0. Starting gravity was 1.05. By my calculations it is about 6.5% already. I've tasted it and it certainly tastes dry. I've gone ahead and racked it, but this seems to have been way too fast.... From memory my previous batches back when I did them 10 years ago usually took a week or 2 in the primary fermentation stage.

Hey I'm not complaining, I'm impatient, But does this seem right? Temperatures have been about 18 degrees C at night and 28 C during the day.

 

[lumpher]

It's possible. Yeast has changed in the last several years. What used to take us a month now takes a week to ferment. The flavor will mature more as time goes on, but the abv will be there quickly. Not saying how it will taste with temps up to 28c and with that temp fluctuation, but yes, it can be finished fermenting. I'd keep some Tylenol handy for the fusel generation, though...

 

[zadamxtr]

It's possible. Yeast has changed in the last several years. What used to take us a month now takes a week to ferment. The flavor will mature more as time goes on, but the abv will be there quickly. Not saying how it will taste with temps up to 28c and with that temp fluctuation, but yes, it can be finished fermenting. I'd keep some Tylenol handy for the fusel generation, though...

Can you please clarify? Would faster fermentation result in a higher level of fusel alcohol? Would letting it mature for a while in 2nd stage reduce it?

 

[lumpher]

The fast fermentation wouldn't cause fusels, but the 28C temp might. Depends on the yeast.

 

[Chalkyt]

Your issue sounds a bit like mine (see my post from yesterday about increase in carbonation).

We have had temperatures over Xmas in the order of 22/23C when I made up a "test bottle" primed with AJ to carbonate. After a few days of steady carbonation, it suddenly jumped after a day of 28C. Plugging some numbers into Andrew Lea's carbonation table, I found that such a temperature difference could increase the CO2 pressure by something like 50% due to CO2 being driven out of solution.

If I roughly reckon that some of this might also be due to the yeast also getting more enthusiastic under higher temperature as well, I guess that your rapid fermentation might be the result. After all, fermentation results in alcohol and CO2 so there might be a rough correlation between fermentation speed and temperature. Anyone know of any studies on this?

Just a bit of overnight pondering.

 

[zadamxtr]

Your issue sounds a bit like mine (see my post from yesterday about increase in carbonation).

We have had temperatures over Xmas in the order of 22/23C when I made up a "test bottle" primed with AJ to carbonate. After a few days of steady carbonation, it suddenly jumped after a day of 28C. Plugging some numbers into Andrew Lea's carbonation table, I found that such a temperature difference could increase the CO2 pressure by something like 50% due to CO2 being driven out of solution.

If I roughly reckon that some of this might also be due to the yeast also getting more enthusiastic under higher temperature as well, I guess that your rapid fermentation might be the result. After all, fermentation results in alcohol and CO2 so there might be a rough correlation between fermentation speed and temperature. Anyone know of any studies on this?

Just a bit of overnight pondering.

Yeah I had assumed that a higher temperature would result in faster fermentation just due to most organisms having more biological activity at higher temperatures than colder ones. Obviously up to a point though! I had done cider 10 years ago at similar temperatures though and never got it done this fast.

 

[pvtpublic]

I would have to concur with the other thoughts here regarding temperature. That's pretty hot for yeast. They love it that warm, but at that temp, their byproducts are less than ideal for us yeast-excrement-consuming folks. Another angle I'd have to present is your pitch rate. Most packs, a dry yeast at an average of 11g, and a liquid pack averaging 100 billion cells (relatively fresh) are designed for 5 gallons, 19L. At that rate for 8L, it's like sending a battalion to clear a house. It's overkill.
I'm not going to knock you, though. You got the job done, and I really hope you're enjoying your results.
The difference, I suppose, is in the specifics; how adamant do you want to be about your results? Do you want something that you can enjoy at home, something you don't have to fuss over?
Or is it something you want to floor you everytime you take a sip. Something you hardly believe that you made yourself.
Either way, you're going to be drinking good stuff.
Blue pill or red pill
BTW, I'm working on some Belgian quad atm, if i sound too pompous. It's the Belgian. I swear.

 

[zadamxtr]

I would have to concur with the other thoughts here regarding temperature. That's pretty hot for yeast. They love it that warm, but at that temp, their byproducts are less than ideal for us yeast-excrement-consuming folks. Another angle I'd have to present is your pitch rate. Most packs, a dry yeast at an average of 11g, and a liquid pack averaging 100 billion cells (relatively fresh) are designed for 5 gallons, 19L. At that rate for 8L, it's like sending a battalion to clear a house. It's overkill.
I'm not going to knock you, though. You got the job done, and I really hope you're enjoying your results.
The difference, I suppose, is in the specifics; how adamant do you want to be about your results? Do you want something that you can enjoy at home, something you don't have to fuss over?
Or is it something you want to floor you everytime you take a sip. Something you hardly believe that you made yourself.
Either way, you're going to be drinking good stuff.
Blue pill or red pill
BTW, I'm working on some Belgian quad atm, if i sound too pompous. It's the Belgian. I swear.

Thanks mate, really interesting food for thought!

I only pitched a teaspoon of yeast for this batch, im guessing that would be around 5g? So hopefully not over pitching.

Living in QLD Australia means unfortunately high temperatures around here for a large part of the year. I may have to look into a solution. I have a camping fridge with adjustable temperature that I may look into using, but I obviously will be limited to smaller batches (which I'm fine with).

TBH in terms of my goal, I'm just looking at this stage to get something that tastes nice and I can enjoy by myself and some friends. Since I am only just getting back into it I'm not yet at the level of trying to perfect it, however I wouldn't mind being able to take steps to make it "better" where I can!

 

[pvtpublic]

Thanks mate, really interesting food for thought!

I only pitched a teaspoon of yeast for this batch, im guessing that would be around 5g? So hopefully not over pitching.

Living in QLD Australia means unfortunately high temperatures around here for a large part of the year. I may have to look into a solution. I have a camping fridge with adjustable temperature that I may look into using, but I obviously will be limited to smaller batches (which I'm fine with).

TBH in terms of my goal, I'm just looking at this stage to get something that tastes nice and I can enjoy by myself and some friends. Since I am only just getting back into it I'm not yet at the level of trying to perfect it, however I wouldn't mind being able to take steps to make it "better" where I can!

I think your pitching rate is about spot on. It's good enough for government work, at the least. I'm kidding, I think you did good accounting for your volume/gravity ratio.
It just may be your temp. I'm about convinced. Have you heard of Inkbird? If not, get one. They aren't too expensive and they're worth their weight in gold. You'll have your ferment temps under your thumb in no time at all.
Here's a few other thoughts, given your situation; try some saisons and Belgians. Start them cold and then let their temps take over like an undisciplined child.
Take advantage of your ambiant temps. There are some awesome styles out there that benefit from hotter temps.
Totally unsolicited advice, I know, sorry.
The devil on my left shoulder was drinking Belgian quad and he said to do it, and the angel on my right was passed out, so...

 

[zadamxtr]

I think your pitching rate is about spot on. It's good enough for government work, at the least. I'm kidding, I think you did good accounting for your volume/gravity ratio.
It just may be your temp. I'm about convinced. Have you heard of Inkbird? If not, get one. They aren't too expensive and they're worth their weight in gold. You'll have your ferment temps under your thumb in no time at all.
Here's a few other thoughts, given your situation; try some saisons and Belgians. Start them cold and then let their temps take over like an undisciplined child.
Take advantage of your ambiant temps. There are some awesome styles out there that benefit from hotter temps.
Totally unsolicited advice, I know, sorry.
The devil on my left shoulder was drinking Belgian quad and he said to do it, and the angel on my right was passed out, so...

I have a camp fridge I can set to 10 degrees C, but no higher. Am I better off fermenting it at a steady 10 degrees C, or leave it out and let it experience 18-30 degrees C each day?

 

[sibelman]

Constant temp is good, but 10 degrees C is rather cool. An external controller (e.g. Inkbird, ~$35 USD) will allow you to set higher temps on your camp fridge.

 

[pvtpublic]

At 10C, you're better off with lagers.
However, the Inkbird that I had mentioned, you can add both a cooling and a heating unit. I have a heat lamp for hatching chicks inside my ferment fridge.

The 18-30*C experience is a very big problem. Especially once you go over 22. Not only is the warmer temperature an issue, but, and most importantly, swing in temps will really screw things up.

Here's the kicker: my doom and gloom warning isn't prophecy. It's simply a culmination of many experiences that would allude to fairly predictable outcome. You still have a chance of a blue ribbon.

Cut the Scheiße of my ramblings;
Stabilize your ferment temps. Brew the same recipe a few times, the same way. Get an understanding of how your beer is supposed to act according to your methods.

Proper feedback on brewing results requires the scientific method. Tells us the intimate details of what you did. Recipe, temps, times, etc

Not that intimate. Yeah, I know where your mind went. (JFWY)

 

[zadamxtr]

Thanks! The Inkbird looks really great, I'll look into picking one up for my next batch and see if keeping at a steady 18C results in a nicer result

 

[bushpilot]

I sometimes keep my brew bucket or carboy in a tub of water, to help stabilize the temperature swings.

 

[zadamxtr]

I sometimes keep my brew bucket or carboy in a tub of water, to help stabilize the temperature swings.

Thats a really great idea!

 

[euthasix]

I've just set a small (8L or so) batch of cider to ferment after having a break from cider making for about 10 years.

I used some general white wine yeast, some yeast nutrient, approx 8L of store bought apple juice (checked that it was just juice, and no preservatives).

I set it to go 4 days ago, and it already seems "finished". airlock was going strong for the first few days, started bubbling already after only 8 hours or so. But the airlock stopped it's action yesterday, and I checked the gravity yesterday and today, both are at exactly 1.0. Starting gravity was 1.05. By my calculations it is about 6.5% already. I've tasted it and it certainly tastes dry. I've gone ahead and racked it, but this seems to have been way too fast.... From memory my previous batches back when I did them 10 years ago usually took a week or 2 in the primary fermentation stage.

Hey I'm not complaining, I'm impatient, But does this seem right? Temperatures have been about 18 degrees C at night and 28 C during the day.

while this was posted a long time ago- I have had this issue and did some tests--what I discovered was that some juice-especially 100% stuff, will start to ferment in the bottle-pasteurization does not kill all the potential yeast (or bacteria) it only reduces the amount. The vacuum is really the only thing keeping them from blowing up in warm weather (and time).