sulfur smell

[Papagayo]

This weekend I racked a 5 gal. batch of Jonagold cider after about 1 month in primary. SG was down to 0.099 and bubbling had come almost to a halt. During racking I noticed a fairly strong sulfur smell. I have never noticed this before and am wondering if this is something that will dissipate during secondary, or is this some sort of infection? I added 75 ppm of SO2 before pitching yeast and ph was around 3.5 Any thoughts?

 

[Ciderzen]

It seems common when making different ciders or apple wines to get sulfur smells - people around here call them "rhino farts". They are seemingly inevitable sometimes, but there are things that can be done I think to reduce or eliminate them from the start:

Did you use yeast nutrient? I have read that apple cider does not have the proper nutrients for the yeast, and that when stressed due to a lack of proper nutrient, the yeast can produce sulfur, or "rotten egg", smells. I ALWAYS use yeast nutrient - I consider it cheap insurance.

What kind of yeast did you use? Using champagne yeast, my primary is always well finished (below .100 SG) after less than 7 days. Since you use Campden before fermentation, I would expect a slower fermentation for you, but even so 1 month may be too long. Dead yeast can give off-flavors and maybe also smells, particularly if your cider contained potassium sorbate (see next).

Did the cider you use contain the preservative potassium sorbate or some other preservative? Yeast cannot multiply effectively in the presence of sorbic acid - I have read that people can still usually get fermentation, but I would guess this would stress the yeast out pretty badly and cause smells. I have read that it can also react with dead yeast to create a "geranium" smell, though I have not experienced it.

Is 75 ppm of Campden (SO2) a bit high? I have read that 50 ppm is used for most wines, and around 25-30 ppm is more common for apple wines and ciders.

I have made several batches of cider wine, using different combinations of cider and sugar, always with yeast nutrient. Also, the cider I use is pasteurized (but with no preservatives), so I do not add Campden (SO2) before my fermentation since there is no wild yeasts to kill and I am reasonably sure that it is sterile enough. So, I only add SO2 after my secondary fermentation is finished and prior to aging (I actually add around 50 ppm of SO2 and also the recommended amount of potassium sorbate at the same time). So far I have not experienced any bad smells at all.

 

[Papagayo]

Thanks for your response.

The cider was freshly pressed in my basement with organic apples, so no preservatives.

I added 75 ppm SO2 because the ph was a bit high and I just wanted to be sure. Usually I just use 50 ppm.

The yeast was Lalvin D-47. The fermentation went brilliantly, so I didn't feel the need to use any nutrients. Normally I would have racked sooner than a month, but I was following the instructions from Ben Watson's book this time, which says to wait a month until bubbling has basically come to a halt. Perhaps I am smelling dead yeast.

I should also mention that everything was very sterile and there has been very minimal air contact with the must.

So, do you have any idea if the rhino farts will fade?

 

[Ciderzen]

So, do you have any idea if the rhino farts will fade?

Though I have read that it's common with apples, I haven't had it so my knowledge on the smells isn't first hand, but...

I have read that they will fade in time, and just a sulfur smell shouldn't be any type of infection I don't think. As they say with all home made wines and beers, don't throw it away or worry about it too much, just give it time.

RDWHAHB

One other thing... I have a winemaking book that talks about rotten egg smells and what to do about it. I will dig it out and reread the section and post again in a few hours when I am finished with work and can get to it.

 

[Fletch78]

I cold crashed a cider last night at 1.009 and no sulphur smell, for the first time. It's also the first time I used yeast nutrient in cider. It could be a coincidence, but I suspect causation.

 

[Dahoov]

I don't have much experience as I have only done 3 batches so far. With my second batch I decided not to include nutrients when I pitched the yeast. After 2 days in primary I started to notice a sulfur smell that increased substantially after several hours. Reading that the yeast sometimes gets "stressed" due to lack of nutrients I added some. When I checked on it the following morning the sulfur smell was completely gone, and has not returned on that batch which is now bottle conditioning. This batch was straight "Sunflower Market" pasteurized apple juice with Safale S04 yeast.

 

[RukusDM]

I don't have much experience as I have only done 3 batches so far. With my second batch I decided not to include nutrients when I pitched the yeast. After 2 days in primary I started to notice a sulfur smell that increased substantially after several hours. Reading that the yeast sometimes gets "stressed" due to lack of nutrients I added some. When I checked on it the following morning the sulfur smell was completely gone, and has not returned on that batch which is now bottle conditioning. This batch was straight "Sunflower Market" pasteurized apple juice with Safale S04 yeast.

I've recently started playing around with hard cider. I've never done a batch that I did not use yeast nutrient or yeast enhancer.

I have about a dozen batches now. Not all large batches, but several in the range of 3L to 5 Gallon. I have never experienced "Rhino Farts" I don't know whether it has anything to do with the cider I use to start (I've used frozen juice to fresh pressed) or not. Or whether it has to do with the yeast nutrient or Yeast Enhancer.

Using those two products, I've also never had a ferment fail to start in more than a few hours.

FWIW

 

[Papagayo]

I haven't used nutrients in the past because it always seemed liked fermentation went well without them. Although now it seems like a good thing to do just in case. What types of nutrients do you use?

I did some sniffing tonight and the rhino fart definitely smells more like my Kmeta than a true rotten egg, more chemically than rotten smelling, if that means anything. It's not overwhelming, but it's definitely there.

Looking back at my notes I realize now that I was a bit heavy handed on the SO2 prior to pitching yeast. One of the batches got 125 ppm, which I now realize is too much. With later batches I've only done 50. So I'm thinking that perhaps it might be SO2 from my Kmeta that I'm smelling, if the cider is still working on it. Is that possible?

Having read a bunch of other threads it seems like many folks have had this problem, and for most, it goes away with time. I'm going to keep an eye on it, and hope it just fades.

 

[dinnerstick]

i wonder if some apples varieties / ripeness stages are more prone to give off farts than others? does anyone have any insight...?
the worst i ever got was with some puckerlingly sour apples that even the resident horse shunned, mixed in about 20% sweet elstars, natural yeast and no SO2, in the secondary it smelled like a constipated camel, but the taste was exceptional. 'sharp' would be a severe understatement. not a sulfury note to be found

 

[RukusDM]

As I had mentioned, I've never had the "Rhino Farts", but I've never used any treatment on the raw cider prior to pitching. Everything I've used is cold pasteurized.

Maybe the cider treatment causes this?

 

[RukusDM]

it smelled like a constipated camel

Lol dinnerstick.

 

[Yan]

i wonder if some apples varieties / ripeness stages are more prone to give off farts than others? does anyone have any insight...?

I've read that fruit grown on trees of standard size contain less nitrogen than fruit grown on dwarf trees. How well an orchard or tree is fertilized probably makes a difference too, since hungry yeast will produce more H2S. I always found it to go away in cider though, where in mead, it can be a nasty problem. So unless I'm making a cyser with a really high OG or some other sort of high gravity cider, I don't use any nutrient.

 

[Mr_fleabite]

Hi, I was reading through the cider threads and thought my 2 cents might be helpful. I know cider is closer to wine making than beer and I work in a winery while I'm no winemaker I've learned a bit.

The temp is a big deal, when you start to clear 70-72 F you may start to get off smells and flavors, 78 F and up and you’re asking for it. Most wine yeasts like 60 F. A lot of this can be corrected/ dissipated by aeration (this is a winemaking perspective). Note that aeration is only done during primary fermentation. I don't know much about beer/cider, I'm fermenting my 1st batch of cider ATM. In winemaking (red) daily "pumpovers"/”splash racks” are used to, among other things introduce O2 for the yeast, even out temps (hot/ cold spots), and dissipate smells. Often a sheet(s) of copper is introduced to the wine as it is being pumped over to pull some of that sulfery smell out.

I'm not suggesting daily pumpovers but 1 or 2 during fermentation might help if it’s really bad. Pumpovers really work, however if that’s not enough cupric sulfate can be added. I think a similar solution could be used in the cider if the smell is bad enough or doesn't go away. A tiny TINY amount of cupric sulfate/ copper sulfate goes a very very long way. Also, I’ve noticed many say they leave their cider on primary for 2 weeks or more. From a winemaking view this is bad practice, if you have a lot of lees/ sludge on the bottom rack the cider to another container. If it is fermenting it will continue to ferment in the new container, and you can add yeast nutrient to keep em’ happy (DAP diammonium phosphate, fermaid, ect.). As the food for the yeast runs out the live ones will make enzymes that break down the dead ones to utilize their nutrients (“autolysis&#8221. It’s all the crazy chemical reactions taking place that make the funky smells. So for the love of your cider/wine/beer rack it off.

If anyone is adventurous enough they could try sanitizing a small section of clean copper pipe for a 15 min soak and see if it helps or a splash rack during fermentation.

So far my cider smells great 4 days into fermentation. I used 2 cups brown sugar 5 gal tree top 3 apple blend 100% juice no ascorbic acid no concentrate, yeast is Lavin Rhone 4600 (leftover white wine yeast, supposedly more "fruit forward"). I'll rack to 2ndary and add raisins for fun w/ some juice to top.

Sorry about the long reply, I hope it's remotely helpful. Cheers

 

[RukusDM]

Hi, I was reading through the cider threads and thought my 2 cents might be helpful. I know cider is closer to wine making than beer and I work in a winery while I'm no winemaker I've learned a bit.

The temp is a big deal, when you start to clear 70-72 F you may start to get off smells and flavors, 78 F and up and you’re asking for it. Most wine yeasts like 60 F. A lot of this can be corrected/ dissipated by aeration (this is a winemaking perspective). Note that aeration is only done during primary fermentation. I don't know much about beer/cider, I'm fermenting my 1st batch of cider ATM. In winemaking (red) daily "pumpovers"/”splash racks” are used to, among other things introduce O2 for the yeast, even out temps (hot/ cold spots), and dissipate smells. Often a sheet(s) of copper is introduced to the wine as it is being pumped over to pull some of that sulfery smell out.

I'm not suggesting daily pumpovers but 1 or 2 during fermentation might help if it’s really bad. Pumpovers really work, however if that’s not enough cupric sulfate can be added. I think a similar solution could be used in the cider if the smell is bad enough or doesn't go away. A tiny TINY amount of cupric sulfate/ copper sulfate goes a very very long way. Also, I’ve noticed many say they leave their cider on primary for 2 weeks or more. From a winemaking view this is bad practice, if you have a lot of lees/ sludge on the bottom rack the cider to another container. If it is fermenting it will continue to ferment in the new container, and you can add yeast nutrient to keep em’ happy (DAP diammonium phosphate, fermaid, ect.). As the food for the yeast runs out the live ones will make enzymes that break down the dead ones to utilize their nutrients (“autolysis”). It’s all the crazy chemical reactions taking place that make the funky smells. So for the love of your cider/wine/beer rack it off.

If anyone is adventurous enough they could try sanitizing a small section of clean copper pipe for a 15 min soak and see if it helps or a splash rack during fermentation.

So far my cider smells great 4 days into fermentation. I used 2 cups brown sugar 5 gal tree top 3 apple blend 100% juice no ascorbic acid no concentrate, yeast is Lavin Rhone 4600 (leftover white wine yeast, supposedly more "fruit forward"). I'll rack to 2ndary and add raisins for fun w/ some juice to top.

Sorry about the long reply, I hope it's remotely helpful. Cheers

Great info

 

[Nice]

...

I'm having a similar sulfur / hydrogen sulfide smell in two batches of cider I pitched 38 days ago. One is Lavlin 1118 and the other Red Star Pasteur Champagne. Both were fresh, unpasteurized orchard cider with Campden additions 24 hours prior to pitching.

The Lavlin batch has very noticeable smell of rotten eggs / sewer. The Red Star still has a faint, but still noticeable sulfur smell.

Both ciders have completely fermented out. Is splash racking still an option?

I read somewhere that racking onto a piece of copper flashing, and the mere contact of the cider onto copper will help draw out or convert the H2S. Could you elaborate on this technique and is it still a viable option for a cider that's this far along?

 

[Fletch78]

My last batch, I used about 10 feet of 22 AWG copper com wire to make a half-assed whisk, stirred for a few minutes before bottling, and the sulfur smell subsided but did not go away. I also picked up a metallic taste. That could have just been in my head though.

 

[RukusDM]

My last batch, I used about 10 feet of 22 AWG copper com wire to make a half-assed whisk, stirred for a few minutes before bottling, and the sulfur smell subsided but did not go away. I also picked up a metallic taste. That could have just been in my head though.

Fletch, did you treat your cider as well prior to pitching?

 

[Fletch78]

No, I'm speaking of the batch I PM'd you about, consumed quickly. No nutrients, etc.

 

[Nice]

Ok, so I'm thinking about splash racking my cider to tertiary tonight using one of these.

On the advice of Fletch78, I fashioned a whisk from some braided bare copper wire:

After reading around about hydrogen sulfide, I found this document:
http://www.functionaltechcorp.com/i/pdf/Hydrogen_Sulfide_in_Fermentations_background.pdf

...which explains splash racking and the need for adding sulfur dioxide to the wine/cider to aid in converting the H2S back into a form that can settle out. Is this something anyone here recommends doing? If so, would Campden be used for this purpose, how many PPM?

Also, I'm pretty sure I'm dealing with H2S, but would smell alone be the only way to tell if it's H2S vs. mercaptans vs. disulfides?

 

[BoomerCreek]

The smell will subside. Just rack it to another carboy and let it sit for a while. The reasons could be many like to warm of a ferment temperature or using too much campden. Rack and let it sit. This has always worked for me. Just be a little patient and forget about the cider for a couple of months.

 

[Nice]

Just be a little patient and forget about the cider for a couple of months.

I know that's the creed around here all, RDWHAHB, but almost everywhere I read about dealing with H2S makes a point about taking action versus waiting. From grapestompers:
Hydrogen sulfide (H2S) usually forms at the end of fermentation, but most home winemakers won't notice a smelly problem until the first racking. If you do smell rotten eggs, the quicker you can act, you'll increase the chances of saving your wine. If you tarry too long before treating the wine, hydrogen sulfide will react with other carbon compounds in the wine to create mercaptans, and later into disulfides. These boogers are extremely difficult to remove from your wine once formed, so the faster you can detect and treat your wine for hydrogen sulfide, the better!

Tonight I will splash rack and whisk with copper, then I'll RDWHAHB, hopefully with a much better smelling cider.

 

[dinnerstick]

can see the prototype kitchen whisk in the background of the photo... yours is sort of a manute bol version of the original

 

[Papagayo]

Thanks for all the great info. It turns out that a simple racking, as mentioned in one of the prior posts, has done a great deal in reducing the sulfurish smell, even in 24-48 hours things have gotten a lot better. Having read dozens and dozens of posts on this, I now feel confident that I just have to wait it out, and keep racking off the lees if more drop.

I recommend that you not splash rack after primary is done. I have tried that before--in an effort to get rid of an overdose of SO2 added after primary--and the cider oxidized really badly. It was a nice cider with the finish of an aluminum can.

 

[Mr_fleabite]

someone asked about splash racking after primary. Do not do that it will not end well for you. If you are 38 days after primary I'd give a copper sheet/pipe/home made wisk a try but the key is exposing the cider/wine to as much copper surface area as possible (so a wisk might not be enough). If that doesn't help you'll need to use cupric sulfate/ copper sulfate (same thing). Wine making forums may be more helpful for dosing amounts and suppliers. Sorry I can't be of more help I'm new to the homemade scene.