Sulfate limit with high sodium water

[Mueltrain54]

I have read that you should limit sulfate levels when sodium levels are high. My brewing water has 94ppm of sodium, I have never had any noticeable issues from that, but now that I am starting to adjust my water im wondering if there is a practical limit of sulfate I should stick to based on my sodium content. Thanks for any advice.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

That's a lot of sodium. I'm not sure as to how to answer your question, but if I might ask one of my own, are you brewing with water that has been through a water softener? If you are, the unsoftened water may prove to be a better brewing option.

 

[Vale71]

AFAIK one should limit sodium levels, period. I'm not aware that adding sulfate versus chloride is going to make any difference if your sodium levels are too high.

 

[Mueltrain54]

According to brun water the practical maximum for sodium is 100ppm, but ideally under 60. Again I dont have any perceptible issues with the sodium, I am more interested if there is a practical maximum on the sulfate with my sodium that high to avoid a minerally character.

It is through a water softener and I do intend to test my water again while bypassing it, but for the time being the sodium hasnt proved to be an issue, and its kind of nice starting with what is essentially a blank slate other then the sodium.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It is through a water softener and I do intend to test my water again while bypassing it, but for the time being the sodium hasn't proved to be an issue, and its kind of nice starting with what is essentially a blank slate other then the sodium.

The softener is not removing alkalinity or sulfate or chloride ions. You are nowhere near a blank slate with a water softener. All it is removing is calcium and magnesium. These are beneficial (or at least the calcium is, and some would argue the same for magnesium). Why remove calcium which is beneficial and replace it with sodium which is not beneficial? And then worry about the negative impact potential of the sodium, as you are doing in this thread.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The mEq/L value of 82 ppm calcium is the equivalent of the 94 ppm sodium mEq/L. That sets an upper limit for your calcium ppm at 82. In reality it will be less than 82 ppm due to the natural presence of magnesium and sodium (and potassium, iron, manganese, etc...). Your non-softened water may be a nigh on perfect brewing water with respect to calcium.

 

[Mueltrain54]

I do appreciate your input and you’re right about what the softener is changing, I didn’t really think that through.

However I am not exactly worrying about the impact of sodium, I know that 94 is high but I’ll reference Brülosophy sodium experiment with 100ppm in a beer being the preferred option, and I did just win first in two categories in my local competition. So my beers don’t seem to be negatively impacted. I’m just trying to figure out how to balance sulfate in an IPA with my sodium levels.

I will definitely be re-testing my water ASAP without the softener though. Thanks

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Unless you delve into peer reviewed data, most of what is presumed about sodium is likely to be merely someones opinion. And it likely came from someone else who merely had an opinion. In fact, per Bamforth, much of the peer reviewed literature about brewing science unfortunately works much the same way. Hearsay without documented substantiation (or independent verification) gets transferred from one document to another until it at some juncture becomes gospel. If you are winning awards with 94 ppm sodium water, that should be sufficient to inform you that at 100 ppm sodium your beer will not suddenly and magically transform into awfulness and need to go into the dumper.

 

[IslandLizard]

I will definitely be re-testing my water ASAP without the softener though.

Or invest in a (small) RO system for drinking and brewing water and start with a much closer blank slate. Use the RO system after the softener. It'll reduce your Sodium to 9.4 ppm at a 90% rejection rate, or do even better.

Depending on your water source, you'll enjoy a much more dependable and predictable mineral composition in your water.

 

[bierhaus15]

High-ish sodium and sulfate is not really an issue, but high Na and Cl can be in hop forward-pale styles.

A very popular IPA from San Diego was/is brewed with sodium of around 100 ppm and sulfate over 300ppm. No issues.

 

[IslandLizard]

High-ish sodium and sulfate is not really an issue, but high Na and Cl can be in hop forward-pale styles.

A very popular IPA from San Diego was/is brewed with sodium of around 100 ppm and sulfate over 300ppm. No issues.

I'm not debating that, I have the feeling the NEIPAs from Treehouse and Trillium are relatively heavy on sodium too. Anyone have any insight on that?

I'm going to experiment by adding some sodium chloride solution to a glass of homebrew NEIPA to see what it does. I really don't use any sodium (or potassium) in my beers, aside from the 4 ppm the water company supplies, which may well be a bit low.

 

[bierhaus15]

I'm not debating that, I have the feeling the NEIPAs from Treehouse and Trillium are relatively heavy on sodium too. Anyone have any insight on that?

I'm going to experiment by adding some sodium chloride solution to a glass of homebrew NEIPA to see what it does. I really don't use any sodium (or potassium) in my beers, aside from the 4 ppm the water company supplies, which may well be a bit low.

There was a packaged beer analysis table for TH beers in one of the threads and the sodium was all relatively low, less than 45 ppm if I remember correctly. Most malt will often provide 10-30 ppm, so I'd guess they are not using much sodium, if any.

 

[IslandLizard]

Most malt will often provide 10-30 ppm,

I never realized malt can supply as much as 30 ppm of sodium, maybe just in higher gravity beers? That's a significant amount.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I never realized malt can supply as much as 30 ppm of sodium, maybe just in higher gravity beers? That's a significant amount.

Not when you consider that you would need to drink a liter of beer to get 30 mg, and then consider that the daily requirement of sodium for those on salt restricted diets is on the order of 1,500 mg.

 

[IslandLizard]

Not when you consider that you would need to drink a liter of beer to get 30 mg, and then consider that the daily requirement of sodium for those on salt restricted diets is on the order of 1,500 mg.

In that light, it's not much, but I didn't mean the amount in absolute terms, more relative to beer and other minerals it contains, natively from ingredients and added.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

In that light, it's not much, but I didn't mean the amount in absolute terms, more relative to beer and other minerals it contains, natively from ingredients and added.

I understand. But there are many brewers who are outright afraid to add sodium to their beer recipes because of their fear of the danger of ingesting too much sodium thereby.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It just might be that the OP is winning awards specifically due (at least in good measure) to his 94 ppm sodium. It is so radically different from most any other sample that a BJCP certified judge is likely to come across on any given sampling day that he/she might notice this beer to immediately stand out and have a uniquely desirable quality that the others (who fear sodium, and therefore shy away from it completely) are lacking.

 

[couchsending]

Tree House isn’t adding sodium to their beers but there’s definitely some extra sodium found in beer from another New England brewery known for it’s mouthfeel.

Also the source water for Monkish (no RO) is close to 100 ppm Na.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Brulosophy did a test with 100 ppm sodium. It was recognized as different by 16 testers, and in the end 7 testers liked it best, and 7 testers liked the low sodium beer best. 2 had no preference.

The guy who did the test said this:

From the first sample at kegging to my latest pour, I could easily distinguish these beers, not only by taste, but aroma as well. In 5 blind triangle test attempts, I identified the unique sample every time without struggle. To me, the high sodium beer had a cleaner more pronounced hop aroma with sharper flavors and crisper mouthfeel than the low sodium beer. To my surprise, I preferred the high sodium beer.

https://brulosophy.com/2018/01/22/w...impact-of-sodium-on-beer-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Then Brulosophy tried 200 ppm sodium, and things didn't go as well. 10 liked the low sodium beer, 4 liked the 200 ppm sodium beer, and again 2 had no preference.

Out of the five triangle tests I attempted, I correctly identified the unique sample four times. To me, the beers had a similar malt aroma, but the one packaged with salt seemed to have a bit sweeter and more caramel-like like flavor compared to the unsalted beer. It also seemed the salt produced a fuller mouthfeel.

https://brulosophy.com/2019/09/09/w...-table-salt-at-packaging-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I just noticed that for the Brulosophy 100 ppm sodium exbeeriment they also had 97 ppm sulfate. And the high sulfate didn't seem to work against the high sodium to derail the beer.