Sulfate/Chloride ratio "too high" for IPA?

[MarkInBuffalo]

I know that taste preferences range big time, and everyone will have different opinions, but I'm trying to nail down my IPA water profile, specifically Cl:SO4 ratio. My tap water gives me 7 ppm S04, 19 ppm chloride. I'm diluting this water bill 60% distilled water/ 40% tap water ( to bring down high bicarbonates, 100ppm). After the dilution, and an addition of 1.25 grams of gypsum per gallon (10 gal total) my sulfate will end up at 187ppm and the chloride will be 7.6 ppm. My sulfates are where I want them, as I really want the hops to come through, but are the chlorides too low? Guess I'm asking if I should narrow the gap between the two. Thanks in advance.

 

[ajdelange]

I know that taste preferences range big time, and everyone will have different opinions,

There is only one opinion that really counts and that is the opinion of your 'customers'. If you are your only customer then it is only your opinion that counts but if you intend to put the beer in contests then the judges become your customers and if you share the beer with family and friends then they are your customers.

but I'm trying to nail down my IPA water profile, specifically Cl:SO4 ratio. My tap water gives me 7 ppm S04, 19 ppm chloride. I'm diluting this water bill 60% distilled water/ 40% tap water ( to bring down high bicarbonates, 100ppm). After the dilution, and an addition of 1.25 grams of gypsum per gallon (10 gal total) my sulfate will end up at 187ppm and the chloride will be 7.6 ppm. My sulfates are where I want them, as I really want the hops to come through, but are the chlorides too low? Guess I'm asking if I should narrow the gap between the two. Thanks in advance.

Start off by forgetting about the concept of a ratio. You must adjust the absolute amounts of sulfate and chloride to the values that give you the most pleasing beer. There are two degrees of freedom here: sulfate and chloride. Of course sulfate and a ratio or chloride and a ratio also span the two degrees of freedom but is is much easier, IMO, to work with the two concentrations than with one and a ratio. Beyond that it should be obvious that a beer made with 10 mg/L sulfate and 10 mg/L chloride will not be the same as one made with 110 mg/L of each even though the ratio is the same.

Chloride generally does good things for beer. There are bound to be some that don't like its effects but I expect they are many fewer than those that do not like the effects of sulfate. 7.6 ppm seems like an awfully low level of chloride. You can do a simple experiment to see if your beer would benefit from more. Simply add a pinch of calcium chloride (or make a solution of it and add a few drops) to some of the beer and taste. It should make the beer taste sweeter, smoother, rounder and fuller. This is, of course, up to a point. As I've never reached that point I don't know what the effects would be though some authors say 'pasty'. I don't really know what they mean by that.

If the beer is improved by added chloride in the glass test then use some in formulating the liquor next time you brew this beer.

 

[MarkInBuffalo]

Thank, AJ. That's helpful. This I a lot to grasp as its the first time really delving into the water chemistry aspect of this all. Ill take that advice and try some Calcium chloride to the finish product and go from there. Thanks

 

[Braufessor]

I agree that the chloride seems low. In general, I think most of my pale ale/IPA water ends up with the following numbers (give or take):
Calcium = 90-110
Sulfate = 160-180
Chloride = 50-60
Bicarbonate = 80-100

I also have high bicarbonate (250+) water and dilute 60-80% with RO water.

I have not been happy with my hoppy beers when I have pushed sulfate up to 300 like some recommend (even if the "ratio" to chloride was still there). I have found that 170 ish seems to be about where I personally like the sulfate to end up. Beyond that, I feel like the beer gets too dry, chalky....

Not saying this is the perfect profile or anything, as I am still experimenting myself, but this has gotten me results I have been happy with to this point.

 

[MarkInBuffalo]

That's good stuff. Will definitely be bumping up my chloride level a bit for my next batch.

 

[FlyBoyKnight]

Forgive me for "waking the dead" thread but I am interested in this topic as a new all grain brewer.

My ground water is relatively good to brew with however, according to John Palmer's water profile excel spreadsheet, my Cl:S04 ratio falls into the "Too Malty" category with:

Chloride: 43 ppm
Sulfate: 5 ppm
(Ratio = 0.12)
(Below 0.4 = "Too Malty on Palmer's sheet)

I am wondering if I am tasting the effects of a "too malty" ratio but I have only done two all grain brews and the first one came out crappy for other reasons I think (general ineptitude on my part). Once this concept was brought to my attention, I feel like I have been tasting a "malt-skewed" flavor presence in all of my previous extract recipes (AMAZING Milk stout and a 65 IBU IPA that always tasted malt-heavy for example) however, I can't say for certain.

To the advice from AJ above, I am going to try the opposite of his experiment and add a tiny tiny bit of epsom salt to an extract IPA I made last month and see if the flavor perception changes at all.

Any body else have any problems with having a "Too Malty" Cl:SO4 ratio?

My full tap water profile (Baltimore, MD):
Calcium: 26 ppm
Magnesium: 8 ppm
Bicarbonate: 78 ppm
Sodium: 17 ppm
Chloride: 43 ppm
Sulfate: 5 ppm
(treated with Campden tablet to remove residual chloramine before using)

 

[Braufessor]

As AJ mentioned earlier.... the concept of ratio becomes irrelevant at a certain point. Sulfate 6, Chloride 1 has a "ratio" of 6:1....... but that is not in any way the same as 300:50 (which is also 6:1).

The issue with your water and brewing an IPA is not the ratio - it is the fact that there is basically no sulfate in it at all. Your chloride is about right, but you would want to find a way (some epsom, some gypsum) to get your sulfate up to 150-300 depending upon preference.

As I continue to experiment, I have been trending toward 225-275 sulfate on my IPA's and 30-40 on my chloride. Trying to keep my Bicarbonate down in the <40 range.

 

[brick_haus]

I would go with 1.5-2.0 grams per gallon of gypsum rather than epsom salt.

 

[FlyBoyKnight]

I would go with 1.5-2.0 grams per gallon of gypsum rather than epsom salt.

Yeah I wasn't sure which to try first. I've found that SO4 can be brought up by either Gypsum (CaSO4) or Epsom Salt (MgSO4).

They both seem to adjust SO4 by about the same amount but calcium vs magnesium add different amounts of hardness to the mix, lowering my ideal SRM range.

I think you are right about Gypsom vs Epsom salt for my water profile too. The extra Ca in the Gypsom will also bring Ca up in Palmer's "Brewing Range" while keeping the target SRM range around 10 ("pale" ale range).

I will have to crunch some more numbers with both "salts" and see which to use.

Thank you for the advice!

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I far prefer to raise my so4 levels with gypsum to epsom. The mg adds up quick.

Are you using any spreadsheets to calculate ppm of salts based on your known amounts and your added amounts?

 

[Braufessor]

I use a little epsom and more gypsum. All gypsum (depending on how much you are using) can bring calcium levels very high. I try to keep my Calcium in the 100-125 range. Using a bit of epsom can give you some of the sulfate you need, without all of the calcium. I keep my Mg low too though....10-15 is all. So I am not using a lot by any means.

Again, as with most of brewing, it is some personal preference and a fair amt. of trial and error along the way.

 

[Yooper]

I tend to have pretty modest sulfate levels in my APAs and IPAs. Generally, I'm in the 150 ppm range, but I have a couple of recipes that I like higher.

Epsom salts can be useful if your calcium is already high, but there is a flavor impact from the magnesium. It can be nice in some beers, bringing out a dry 'tart' flavor, but in over 40 ppm it is disasterous. (Of of course, we probably all remember 'milk of magnesia' and what it is used for! It's a laxative).

I never go over 26 ppm of magnesium, partly because that is what I have in my tap water if I'm using it- but I generally have quite a bit less.

Malt provides all the magnesium necessary for yeast and fermentation health, so it's not strictly needed in any amount in the brewing water.

 

[northernlad]

I just moved from an hour north of Seattle to Abilene, TX.
While I don't know the exact profile of the water in WA, I can tell you the TDS out of the tap where I lived was 40.

I got a profile from the TX water company:
BiCarb 130
Calcium 75
Chloride 258
I doesn't list any other minerals.

I haven't messed too much with water chemistry but my research tells me that the chlorides are wicked high.

I brewed my first batch, a Chocolate Stout (from AHS) using 1/2 tap and 1/2 RO. It's just now finished fermentation so I don't know what the end result will be.
For those of you use to this kind of water is there anything more I can do to reduce the chloride level short of using 100% RO and adjusting with salts?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, you can cut with less than 100% RO. For example, if you use 1 part of RO for each part of tap water the chloride would go to 129, the calcium to 37.5 etc. 2:1 would give chloride at 86, calcium at 25 and so on.