Suggestions on where to start

[dpalme]

Am new to brewing in genera but being a 30+ year geek for the old days of a system/32 up through the current iSeries systems I am definitely interested in the automation process......

If anyone has any suggestions on where to start I would be most appreciative.....

 

[mbobhat]

How much have you brewed? GIGO. I feel like I am never getting the art just right, and constantly new things coming up to improve. In the military they have a training philosophy of "crawl, walk, run", I feel it pertains to many things.

I wouldn't take the "home" out of homebrewing just yet. My 2 cents.

 

[hatrickwah]

I have to agree with mbobhat. If brewing is new to you, it helps to start small. The automation is nice, but starting with the kitchen, and moving outside, before going auto helps you understand and appreciate the process more. After a year or 2, you find you really enjoy brewing, then make the leap. I was brewing for 1 yr, extract, 1yr with plastic bucket lauter tun, 1 year 10 gal single tier with gas, and this past xmas I made the leap to automate my setup. Considering the investment involved, (>$2k in my case) its wise to think before you leap.
If you're really ready to make the leap though, there are plenty of us who can help. I'm in the process now of trying to assemble packages that can help newer auto brewers step in with less headache. Problem is I like BCS, and have BCS, so designing for PID is a little tricky.

 

[kladue]

Automation can be done in steps from simple switched control, electronic single point temperature controllers, Brewtroller/BCS system, PLC or analog and digital IO hardware and an application written to run on a computer. Having gone from entirely manual process to complete automation with PLC hardware and application, it can be done in stages.
The beginning step would be a temperature controller operating a gas valve, next step up would be the Brewtroller which is limited by 10 bit analog inputs (1024 steps), limited functions and display options. Slightly better is the BCS 460 platform, but it is limited to just thermister temperature sensors, level and flow are not an option. The BCS display application is an improvement over the Brewtroller but again the sensor and control options are limited and programming in new features by users does not seem to be an option.
Another step up would be IO boards built for the microcontroller robot applications, and a Java or other language application to communicate and control. Here you would be in control of the design and complexity of the hardware and application, and could build in as much functionality as you have time to program. IO board costs are usually under $30 each for 8 channels of analog input, $15 each for digital output, or PWM output boards. Analog output, thermocouple, RTD input boards are available but cost more because of additional complexity. A simple setup with a USB-I2C board, 16 channel digital board, and a 12 bit 8 channel analog board would get you started, and additional boards could be added to expand IO points by connecting them to I2C network and changing application to include them.
The PLC hardware route is probably the most expensive route as hardware costs are highest, but use of industry standard sensors for temperature, pressure, flow is made possible by plug in modules. Applications for PLC control range from free ware to licensed factory software packages for the make and model of the hardware used.

 

[Malric]

I agree with hatrickwah. I started with a 2.5 gallon Mr Beer system for about 6 months, moved to stove top extract, then partial mash and finally all grain. I think you really need to understand the brewing process before you can evaluate an automated system. Some questions to ask that will help in designing your system.

1. Are you going to be doing BIAB (Brew in a bag), decoction, step mashing, single infusion, etc?
2. How much automation are you looking for? I wanted temperature control, but still wanted to be hands on. As a result, I am currently building a 5 gallon HERMS run by a BCS 460.
3. What is your budget? Anything less than 1-1500 will be very tight and you'll need to shop for deals or barter. Already owning the pots and a single pump, I expect the project to cost around $2500. That will include new basement plumbing, electrical, ventilation, automation, fittings, etc.

Kal's 'the electric brewery' is an awe inspiring display of OCD documentation. It's also a great tool for learning how to properly plan for a build. I know that I spent more than six months designing, redesigning and shopping before I started making purchases.

 

[dpalme]

I understand what everyoneis saying and I'm not going to jump fast here, just really interested in the software right now that controls everything....along with the monitors probes etc.

I will continue to learn and expirement with the brewing process, but figured I'd get a head start on some of the stuff that I found interesting

 

[dpalme]

Klaus,
Is there a particular language that is dominant? I would assume C or maybe C++ (I don't do C# simply because I stay away from windows). I saw that you mentioned Java, is that where everything is headed or does it really matter?

 

[kladue]

If you want to get into programming your own, I have applications written in both Java and C# to borrow from so one would not need to start from scratch. IDE's like Netbeans are free down loads and Java will probably do what you need to do, it just has some flaws related to memory management when displaying graphic screens that I found the hard way, and the solution to the problem.
The next question is what do you want the application to do?, define the features and then the time to build the screens and code can be estimated. Having spent over 2,000 hours developing the applications I have a good understanding of what it takes to create and test the various screens and code to make things happen. Then the hardware can be selected based on what is needed to accomplish the design goals for the brewing system, and where to find and cost can be developed. If you have time then shopping Ebay with part number searches can get you some nice hardware at reasonable prices, otherwise you pay full price for the parts to get things done quickly.
Here is a link to the automated system application built in C# https://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/OneTouchProgramGraphics, overkill for the most part if recipe and other features are not usefull. Currently I am creating a much smaller application for the USB connected IO boards with run time setup so hard coding the application is not necessary, and one application can fit many different types of systems and hardware configurations.

 

[medvitz]

For my 2 cents, start with the environmental monitoring (volume, temp, etc). Once you have that down, move to valves, then pumps. Do the heat control last. Language will most likely be C if your using a microcontroller.

 

[Rbeckett]

I just started to do the same thing you propose and was told that C is all I would need. C++ is way overkill and makes the learning curve much steeper. So I reordered the text books for C and have been watching tutorials on you tube every chance I get. I also started to order PID's from China since they are less than 1/2 what they sell for in the US. I also started ordering misc switches, Misc 25A and 40A SSr's, RGB LED's and misc commonly used parts. That way when I do start to actually build I will have most if not all of the parts here in advance at a better price. I am currently drawing out all of the circuits one at a time and running SPICE on them to make sure they work, then I plop it into my main wiring schematic and move to the next circuit. Right now I am using a lot of logic level switching, but every switch will eventually be replaced with a transistor or other device to eliminate the switch and need for hands on every step of the way. Build in levels and expand a little at a time so you can brew while you build. My 3 tier tower is about 80% done, so I need to get busy and finish the schematic and put some parts on boards. Good luck and dont forget the pics as you go.
Wheelchair Bob

 

[dpalme]

Kladue,
You mentioned a temp controller with a gas valve, I assume by this you mean a temperature controller that operates a gas solenoid to increase or decrease temp correct?

 

[kladue]

That was a description of the Love TS temperature switch and honeywell VR8200 gas control valve type setup that is popular. The standing pilot gas valve setup runs about $80 per burner, and the controller about $50. For further automation the controller is replaced with relay controlled by the automation hardware of choice.

 

[dpalme]

Thanks......maybe my explanation didn't do it justice but I think we were at least on the same path even if not at the same door

 

[kladue]

The general idea is to start with the heat controlling valve or relay, then select something to turn it on and off. Next step is to replace the simple control with a multifuncion controller to increase functionality. Last step would be to use a computer with software to control the hardware installed in the first step. The brewing control system design is only limited by the time you want to spend building it.

 

[dpalme]

Those valves you mentioned (Honeywell) will those work with propane as well?

 

[DannPM]

damn this thread is confusing and exciting all at the same time.

 

[dpalme]

Sorry if I made it confusing its a Jewish Packer fan thing )))

 

[ClaudiusB]

Those valves you mentioned (Honeywell) will those work with propane as well?

Honeywell valves come with a propane conversion kit (spring, label and cover plate).
All my Honeywell run on propane.
Yellow warning label is for propane and below the black regulator cover plate is the new spring.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[dpalme]

Cool Claudius thanks!!

 

[kladue]

If you want to go with the Love temperature switches here is a diagram that was made for controlling 3 valves, 2 pumps, and 2 valves. The 120VAC side is in blue, and the 24VAC is in red https://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/PanelWiringDiagram#5507979690350514498, this is a starting point that could be down sized for your needs.