Substituting yeast nutrient for yeast

[Beer666]

I have run out of Wyeast beer nutrient and think i read somewhere you can throw some yeast in the boil instead. What is the deal with this and how much would i have to use? I have slurry and dried yeast and brew with RO water. Cheers

 

[coonmanx]

Yeast will actually eat dead yeast cells so yes this will probably work. In fact I believe that the White Labs Servomyces may contain dead yeast cells.

 

[IslandLizard]

I think the idea is to boil some (old or fresh) yeast slurry to rupture the cell walls and add that to your fermenter. Not the kettle.

If you make 2nd generation starters, or a starter from an older pack, you usually have enough dead yeast in there already.

Some yeast nutrients include yeast hulls.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The most important component of Wyeast nutrient (and Servomyces) is the zinc, which you won't get from putting yeast in the kettle, or dead yeast in the fermenter.

 

[Beer666]

So i could just use zinc tablets? A fraction of one i presume. Thank you for the replies.

 

[IslandLizard]

So i could just use zinc tablets? A fraction of one i presume. Thank you for the replies.

Human nutrient supplements? Depends on what form/chelation it's in, from what I've read.

Here's what I use:
https://www.alphachemicals.com/zinc_sulfate
I also grabbed some other stuff while I was there, all for the same shipping rate of $7.00. Oops, looks like it's $9.00 now.
At the minute requirements used, one pound will last me 100 lifetimes, I gather.

 

[coonmanx]

The most important component of Wyeast nutrient (and Servomyces) is the zinc, which you won't get from putting yeast in the kettle, or dead yeast in the fermenter.

Interesting. I have gotten really good fermentations since I started using Servomyces.

From this link... "It is made by saturating beer yeast with zinc and then drying it. Zinc is a missing nutrient in wort and is more readily absorbed from dead yeast cells than by adding it directly as a mineral."

https://www.morebeer.com/products/servomyces-yeast-nutrient.html

So apparently Servomyces is better than simply adding zinc....

 

[RPh_Guy]

They'd like you to think that, wouldn't they.

It's just as good to add a zinc solution or Wyeast nutrient directly to the fermenter.

However, making and dosing your own zinc is more involved because the amount needed is so small, 0.1-0.2ppm Zn.

 

[Beer666]

Servomyces it looks to be then. I have used the wyeast for the past three years and never had a stuck fermentation so not using any nutrient seems weird. I guess i will have to wait for it to arrive and order some Servomyces as well. I don't mind buying it and your right measuring it would be difficult.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Just to be clear, don't use both together.

IMO Servo is way overpriced for what it is.

 

[Beer666]

Just to be clear, don't use both together.

IMO Servo is way overpriced for what it is.

I was looking at this stuff https://www.geterbrewed.com/servomyces-100g-foil-vacuum-pack/
Where you referring to something else?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I was looking at this stuff https://www.geterbrewed.com/servomyces-100g-foil-vacuum-pack/
Where you referring to something else?

Wow that's WAAAAY less expensive than the capsules. That's what you pay for convenience I guess.

 

[day_trippr]

I've been buying 100g packs since I stumbled into them in an lhbs.
Way cheaper, and once in a tight jar only a tiny bit more trouble to use...

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've been buying 100g packs since I stumbled into them in an lhbs.
Way cheaper, and once in a tight jar only a tiny bit more trouble to use...

Cheers!

Multiple packs?!
According to their instructions, 100g is enough for 2,640 gallons (10,000 L).

 

[day_trippr]

[shrug] I use 1 gram per 10 gallon batch - a little more than double the prescribed dosage (1g/100L).
I've been using Servomyces for years and brew ~180-200 gallon per year, so it doesn't last for a lifetime
I bought my second 100g last fall...

Cheers!

 

[SanPancho]

[shrug] I use 1 gram per 10 gallon batch - a little more than double the prescribed dosage (1g/100L).
I've been using Servomyces for years and brew ~180-200 gallon per year, so it doesn't last for a lifetime
I bought my second 100g last fall...

Cheers!

First- I believe Kai had results showing that more zinc was not better.

second- where’d you find servomyces in bulk like that? Have only ever seen “bulk” orders just mean a ton of blister packs.

 

[RPh_Guy]

[shrug] I use 1 gram per 10 gallon batch - a little more than double the prescribed dosage (1g/100L).
I've been using Servomyces for years and brew ~180-200 gallon per year, so it doesn't last for a lifetime
I bought my second 100g last fall...

Cheers!

A pound of that zinc sulfate @IslandLizard linked could add 0.2ppm zinc to over 218,000 gal.
I'd like to see you need a second pack of that!

 

[SanPancho]

The most important component of Wyeast nutrient (and Servomyces) is the zinc, which you won't get from putting yeast in the kettle, or dead yeast in the fermenter.

That isn’t true the way you’re stating it. Dried yeasts are propagated so they have all the nutes they need for initial pitch. That includes zinc. (Per lallemand at least).

Yeast on its second/third/etc generation would likely be deficient. But fresh pitch dry yeast would have it available. Beer yeast at least.

 

[RPh_Guy]

That isn’t true the way you’re stating it. Dried yeasts are propagated so they have all the nutes they need for initial pitch. That includes zinc. (Per lallemand at least).

Yeast on its second/third/etc generation would likely be deficient. But fresh pitch dry yeast would have it available. Beer yeast at least.

I agree with what you're saying. There's not a definite need for nutrient at all, if you're pitching first generation dry yeast.

I'm not sure how that has any bearing on my statement though. Boiled yeast is no substitute for these nutrients.

 

[day_trippr]

First- I believe Kai had results showing that more zinc was not better.
second- where’d you find servomyces in bulk like that? Have only ever seen “bulk” orders just mean a ton of blister packs.

I dunno - at better home brew stores?
I had always bought the oblong "pills" but as I said one day I stumbled into a 100g foil pack at an lhbs. The rest is history.

I may consider cutting back to the prescribed amount for a couple of repeat batches and see if anything changes...

Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

A pound of that zinc sulfate @IslandLizard linked could add 0.2ppm zinc to over 218,000 gal.
I'd like to see you need a second pack of that!

Not sure what the point of that was...

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Just a fun fact.

 

[madscientist451]

I seldom use yeast nutrient in beer, but I do pitch a healthy, active and large amount of yeast, and its been working for me. I suppose the dead yeast in the slurry acts as a nutrient? I do use the WL
Servomyces when fermenting a big beer or barleywine, but that's like twice a year for me.

 

[day_trippr]

Ok. That's allowed
But, I assume there's more in Servomyces - essential element wise - than a single chemical compound can provide.
Maybe I'm incorrect, but it seems more likely yeast corpses have all kinds of stuff they like.

btw, I'm not 100% sure the 100 gram Servomyces packages I've bought originated with Wyeast. They sell much larger bulk quantities and someone may have a cottage business breaking them down....

Cheers!

 

[SanPancho]

I agree with what you're saying. There's not a definite need for nutrient at all, if you're pitching first generation dry yeast.

I'm not sure how that has any bearing on my statement though. Boiled yeast is no substitute for these nutrients.

that's not my point, i'm not referring to brewing using a fresh pitch of dry yeast. i'm talking about using donor yeast as a nutritional supplement for the yeast you're pitching in the beer.

the question is whether or not the yeast you sacrifice has zinc. if you use "old" yeast that has metabolized and depleted its zinc stores then no, you wont see a benefit. if you use fresh dry yeast it will. you're leaving out that huge distinction from what i can see.

and to further the point- there's the comment from white labs that the zinc is better supplemented when it comes from dead yeast than from inorganic mineral form. their claim is essentially that the donor yeast has already absorbed/converted/altered it to a more bioavailable form. so that fresh dry yeast strain- topped up with nutrients- is what essentially becomes servomyces. and their instructions state to add to boil. so yes, boiled yeast (when fresh from lab/propagation) is a source of these nutrients.

servomyces is the case in point. other dry yeast strains are also sources, although not necessarily designed for that use. is it worth it to pay for servomyces vs buying expired yeast pouches from lhbs for $1 each? dunno. but in the big picture, its pretty much the same thing from what the labs are telling us.

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's logical, thanks.

 

[SanPancho]

I dunno - at better home brew stores?
I had always bought the oblong "pills" but as I said one day I stumbled into a 100g foil pack at an lhbs. The rest is history.

I may consider cutting back to the prescribed amount for a couple of repeat batches and see if anything changes...

Cheers!

so wait- the 100g pack you bought wasnt pills, it was just bulk powder? that would make sense. i assumed you meant a big ass bag of pills..

 

[day_trippr]

Right - these are foil bags of 100 grams of powder, not capsules or pills...

Cheers!

 

[Beer666]

I was eating falafel and the Mrs told me sesame seeds are high in zinc and calcium. If i get desperate to brew i might grind some up and throw them in the boil. Almost not joking, waiting for delivery of my supplies is becoming stressful.
How much Servomyces are people using?