Stupid Question - Maybe

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Calder

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The Wyeast smackpaks have a nutrient to get the yeast ready to go when pitched. (As an aside, does anyone know what it is?)

I've got a pack of 3278 (Lambic Blend). Since this is not just sacc, but a blend of Sacc, Brett, Pedio, Lacto and Sherry Flor, would I be better off not smacking the pack. The idea is that I want the yeast to get off to a slow start, and allow some of the bugs to try and get a head start. I'm sure the pack has the same nutrient, which is designed for yeast; not sure if it is beneficial for anything else in the pack.
 

bellmtbbq

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If you want a fairly sour beer, the better way is smack the pack, and make a small starter for a day, letting the bacteria out run the sacch
 

CadillacAndy

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bellmtbbq said:
If you want a fairly sour beer, the better way is smack the pack, and make a small starter for a day, letting the bacteria out run the sacch
I'm not sure how effective this would be. The best way would be to mash very high (158F) to leave lots of long chain sugars for the Brett and bacteria to feed on in the long term.

Also, keep in mind that brett will start to fizzle out at around a pH of 3.4, so if the pedio and lacto get too much of a head start, you'll wind up getting down in pH more quickly, and the brett flavors won't be as prominent.
 

WoodlandBrew

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On the brewing network, Sunday Session 12-02, they did a whole show on Brett with Flat Tail Brewing Company. It was enlightening for me, it might be of value to you.

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/927

P.S. in case you haven't listened to this show before, fast forward through the first hour of the show. That part is just "boy's being boy's" The meat is all after the first commercial break.
 

AmandaK

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I smack it for 3728 - seems to work out for me.
 

bellmtbbq

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cadillacandy said:
I'm not sure how effective this would be. The best way would be to mash very high (158F) to leave lots of long chain sugars for the Brett and bacteria to feed on in the long term.

Also, keep in mind that brett will start to fizzle out at around a pH of 3.4, so if the pedio and lacto get too much of a head start, you'll wind up getting down in pH more quickly, and the brett flavors won't be as prominent.
Lacto and Pedio don't chew on bugs long term. They eat quick and vigorous, so you're wrong
 

CadillacAndy

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bellmtbbq said:
Lacto and Pedio don't chew on bugs long term. They eat quick and vigorous, so you're wrong
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. Lacto and pedio are bacteria (bugs). They are able to chew thru the long chain sugars, so by having wort with lots of long chain sugars, you give them food after the sacch dies off. Since they produce lactic acid, it will lower the pH. Brett doesn't like anything lower than about 3.4, so it's a fine balance of what you're trying to accomplish.

Getting the bacteria up to fighting strength early on will drop your pH quickly and will decrease overall complexity of the beer. They go after the more simple sugar first, then move on to the more difficult stuff.

Also, wasn't trying to be argumentative :)
 

bellmtbbq

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cadillacandy said:
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. Lacto and pedio are bacteria (bugs). They are able to chew thru the long chain sugars, so by having wort with lots of long chain sugars, you give them food after the sacch dies off. Since they produce lactic acid, it will lower the pH. Brett doesn't like anything lower than about 3.4, so it's a fine balance of what you're trying to accomplish.

Getting the bacteria up to fighting strength early on will drop your pH quickly and will decrease overall complexity of the beer. They go after the more simple sugar first, then move on to the more difficult stuff.

Also, wasn't trying to be argumentative :)
From the lab stuff I've done, I've seen bacteria drop a gravity point or less after primary fermentation. I was taught that lactic bacteria, at least are very quick to reproduce/complete mitosis and "ferment" lactic acid. Hmm.. Odd. You may be right but you can bottle a true berliner Weiss after fermentation even if you havent pasteurized. Never make bottle bombs like Brett. All the best
 

CadillacAndy

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From the lab stuff I've done, I've seen bacteria drop a gravity point or less after primary fermentation. I was taught that lactic bacteria, at least are very quick to reproduce/complete mitosis and "ferment" lactic acid. Hmm.. Odd. You may be right but you can bottle a true berliner Weiss after fermentation even if you havent pasteurized. Never make bottle bombs like Brett. All the best
Agree 100% about the Berliner. That's usually just Lactobacillus - no Pedio. Pediococcus is what produces most of the sourness in a Lambic or Flanders Red and that and Brett is what gets your gravity down in the lower ranges after extended aging.

My concern with getting the Lacto awake and fighting too early in the fermentation process would be the pH. Like I said earlier, if your pH drops too low, too quickly, you're going to end up with a sour beer that's lacking the complexity that you're going for with a Lambic or Flanders Red because the Brett will sissy out at a pH of around 3.4.

By leaving a more dextrinous wort (higher mash temps, unmalted wheat, etc) you're leaving lots of food for the pedio and brett to eat long after the sacch (and I suspect the lacto) have run out of fuel. This will give you more complexity and sourness, without producing just lactic acid early on in the process.

I'm not a scientist or anything, but have been researching and reading everything I possibly can on "wild fermenation", so if I'm posting incorrect info, please correct me.

Cheers! :mug:
 

bellmtbbq

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cadillacandy said:
Agree 100% about the Berliner. That's usually just Lactobacillus - no Pedio. Pediococcus is what produces most of the sourness in a Lambic or Flanders Red and that and Brett is what gets your gravity down in the lower ranges after extended aging.

My concern with getting the Lacto awake and fighting too early in the fermentation process would be the pH. Like I said earlier, if your pH drops too low, too quickly, you're going to end up with a sour beer that's lacking the complexity that you're going for with a Lambic or Flanders Red because the Brett will sissy out at a pH of around 3.4.

By leaving a more dextrinous wort (higher mash temps, unmalted wheat, etc) you're leaving lots of food for the pedio and brett to eat long after the sacch (and I suspect the lacto) have run out of fuel. This will give you more complexity and sourness, without producing just lactic acid early on in the process.

I'm not a scientist or anything, but have been researching and reading everything I possibly can on "wild fermenation", so if I'm posting incorrect info, please correct me.

Cheers! :mug:
Pedio, in fact, is just a lactic acid bacteria, creates lactic acid and lowers the pH just like Lacto. I've never done any lab work directly with Pedio, I've always been under the impression that Pedio works quickly, just Brett is a slow chewer, but it's something I'm not sure about. Id be Interested to do some work with it next term.
 
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The issue of a mixed fermentation with brett, lacto, and pedio is that when combined they will reach "super attenuation". The fermenation is a symbiotic environment for the brett and bacteria. The brett likes a lower pH which is afforded by the bacteria but I think the key aspect is enzymes. I'd have to look it up, but I think pedio and lacto make different enzymes that will hydrolyze different sugar bonds. Likewise different brett strains have different enzyme abilities. So when you combine them they can break down most of the sugar bonds that are left untouched by each organism alone, and especially sacch. When I say differnet sugar bonds it's the difference between alpha 1-2 (ex sucrose) alpha 1-4 (ex. Maltose) or beta 1-4 (ex. Lactose). So each organism may be able to hydrolyze a specific bond but wort is a mixture of sugar. It's more complicated than I make it sound and I can't even understand it completely but this is the gist of what's happening.

As to the original question I believe the little packets are a glucose and amino acid nutrient packet to kick start the yeast.
 
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Calder

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Pedio, in fact, is just a lactic acid bacteria, creates lactic acid and lowers the pH just like Lacto. I've never done any lab work directly with Pedio, I've always been under the impression that Pedio works quickly, just Brett is a slow chewer, but it's something I'm not sure about. Id be Interested to do some work with it next term.
Yes, Pedio creates Lactic acid, but I don't think it is a lactobacillus strain. I've always been under the impression the lacto stalls when the alcohol level rises, so lacto does it's work early, and Pedio takes it's time in the highly alcoholic environment producing lactic acid for up to 18 months or more.

In my experience Lambic style beers continue to sour for a long time, well after the sacc is done, and probably after the Brett is done too. The difference between a 6 month and 12 month beer is huge in relation to the sourness, and Brett is not doing the souring.


As to the original question I believe the little packets are a glucose and amino acid nutrient packet to kick start the yeast.
Thanks, that's what I thought. I'm not going to smack it, and just add everything to the wort and see how it does. I'd like to let the Lacto get a start before the sacc gets going. This pack is about 6 months after the mfg date, so the sacc is probably low. I'll be ready with a healthy pitch of sacc if it doesn't seem to be going after 3 days, and bottle dregs will be added at 2 weeks to get some more complexity.
 

bellmtbbq

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Calder said:
Yes, Pedio creates Lactic acid, but I don't think it is a lactobacillus strain. I've always been under the impression the lacto stalls when the alcohol level rises, so lacto does it's work early, and Pedio takes it's time in the highly alcoholic environment producing lactic acid for up to 18 months or more.

In my experience Lambic style beers continue to sour for a long time, well after the sacc is done, and probably after the Brett is done too. The difference between a 6 month and 12 month beer is huge in relation to the sourness, and Brett is not doing the souring.

Thanks, that's what I thought. I'm not going to smack it, and just add everything to the wort and see how it does. I'd like to let the Lacto get a start before the sacc gets going. This pack is about 6 months after the mfg date, so the sacc is probably low. I'll be ready with a healthy pitch of sacc if it doesn't seem to be going after 3 days, and bottle dregs will be added at 2 weeks to get some more complexity.
Yes, Pedio is in the lacto family. Another reason you have growing sourness is acetic acid from oxygenation on the surface. That's where I've always thought the souring comes from as time passes. If you putt a lambic in a glass carboy from day one, completely purged of oxygen after primary, sourness won't develop very well. Whether that's from acetic or Pedio, not sure. There's a paper someone wrote on American cool ship fermentation, I'll have to see what he wrote were popular bacteria wise in extended aging. I'll look tonight

The previous poster has it right with sugar chains, glucose and fructose being the easiest monosaccharides to process, followed by things like sucrose and dextrose, and then more complex chain sugars, like lactose, dextrins, etc. these different yeasts and bacteria contain different kinds of enzymes in their cytoplasm which helps break complex sugars down into glucose, the most basic sugar, so mitochondria can burn it to make ATP and alcohol and CO2 are byproducts.
 
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Pediococcus is a separate bacterium from lactobacillus. For one pedio is spherical shaped and lacto is rod shaped. Also they produce different enzymes. If pedio was a form of Lactobacillus spp. then it would be Lactobacillus pedicoccus or something along those lines. Instead it is Pediococcus damonsus or Pediococcus cerevisiae or whatever subspecies. I think where the confusion is coming from is due to pedio and lacto being considered lactic acid bacteria. It's true they're LAB and they both make lactic acid but pedio is not a sub species of lacto.

You will get PLENTY of souring with lacto/pedio in a glass carboy. Pedio and lacto are microaerophilic aka faculative anerobes. They need some oxygen but very little. Acetobacter or Gluconbacter require oxygen to make acetic acid from alcohol. Lacto and pedio make lactic acid from sugars.
 

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Pediococcus is a separate bacterium from lactobacillus.
This is true - Pedio is a different genus than Lacto. However, both are in the the same family (Lactobacillaceae) just as bellmtbbq suggested. Also the same order (Lactobacillales). So they are related, but are clearly different genera with wide array of different characteristics as you all highlight above
 
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Right. It sounded like he was saying that a pediococcus was a subspecies of lactobacillus which just isn't the case. It's like saying a poison dart frog is the same as a bullfrog. Sure they're in the same family and order, but they're not the same thing. I think the confusion is/was stemming from the names Lactobacillaceae and Lactobacillales.

Eitherway the continued souring as mentioned above is due to the production of hydrolyzing enzymes by both the bacteria and the brettanomyces further breaking down the sugars.
 
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