Stupid beginner questions... but I have to ask

[Mumathomebrew]

Just asking truly ridiculous things... but just have to ask. You can shoot this down in flames and get no complaints.

I've read loads. I've looked stuff up that I don't understand. However, there are a few things still to grasp properly. I don't mind if you are really harsh. Just say why.

Why is the grain size left so huge for the enzymes that turn starch to sugar?
How long does it take?
Is 90 minutes enough for human spit or artificial enzymes to digest starch into sugar?
Why aren't the grains ground finer to give a greater area for the enzymes, or indeed the yeasties, to have a field day with?
Why isn't beer fermented on the grain for the same reason as above?
Aren't yeasties better at getting at tiny sugars than we are capable of clumsily gifting to them? Finer area presumably uses less grain unless there is another reason not to.

I'm not quite getting why beer makers don't use finer grinds of these mediums. There must be finer methods of sparging or leaving the yeasts to sift it themselves like winemaking methods.

I know I'm missing something.....

 

[deeve007]

Have you googled your questions? I know from my googling on a few of those (or closely related) there's loads of info online about most if not all.

Eg, your question about grain coarseness, second result in google was this one: http://brulosophy.com/2015/11/23/mind-the-gap-course-vs-fine-crush-exbeeriment-results/ (this site/blog I've found a GREAT resource for many questions)

I'm also a newbie brewer, but have found best to search as much as I can, and if I don't understand something link to it and ask for the specific clarification I'm seeking. Or updated info if I can only find something quite old...

 

[Parrothead1]

Traditional all grain brewers need bigger crushed grains because they use them as a filter. Brew in the bag brewers like me usually use a finer crush because we are using the bag as a filter. 90 minutes is more than enough for starch conversion,(never tried spit) it happens quickly. Most people mash for about an hour. The brulosophy guys tried mashing for something like 10 or 15 min and said the beer turned out fine. I do an hour. Not in that big of a hurry and it gives me time to clean and sanitize everything so I can put on some music, pop open a beer and chill during the boil. Give a man a beer and he’ll spend 10 minutes drinking it, teach him how to make beer, and he will spend his whole life trying to make better beer. Welcome to the hobby.

 

[Dave Sarber]

^^^Ditto!

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Thank you. I honestly HAVE been googling like mad for ages, plus reading books, as well as asking on here. There are loads of opinions online but not necessarily the scientific angle of the why. I will look at that link site thank you.

I'd noticed in smaller quantities that a finer grind can be done using the bag method and already have some grains and flours to play with. It's very interesting that starches can be converted by enzymes so fast. Much faster than yeast. I shall be doing some side by side experiments of the three to taste and smell the answers. I'm just an uber-curious sort of person so was wondering what other peoples opinions are on here as they've already trodden this ground.

The fermenting on the grain/flour is what interests me because I've always noticed the yeast is so efficient when winemaking. I've been making country wines for over ten years now so I'm familiar with those sorts of brewing methods. Most country wines made on the fruits of all sorts drop their lees and clarify very well without separating them first like the beer method.

 

[soccerdad]

A simplified way of understanding grain crush is this .. you want every piece of every grain to be saturated by hot water. Courser grain crush will take longer to saturate. Finer crush (and finer particles) will saturate more quickly. The right equipment (like a bag) will allow you to crush fine without risking a stuck sparge. A stuck sparge occurs when the filter (like a stainless braid in a mash tun) gets clogged by particles that are too fine for the equipment. Hence, folks who use a stainless braid in a mash tun (more traditional brewers) do 2 things that are not generally needed with BIAB brewers .. they crush courser to not get stuck, and they mash longer to saturate each piece. Does that make sense?

 

[bracconiere]

Is 90 minutes enough for human spit or artificial enzymes to digest starch into sugar?

"human spit", LOL

i don't know how long it'd take to sweeten barley soup by spitting into it. But the alpha-gluco tag team will do it, alpha in a few minutes, gluco when it's done fermenting...

I do mill my malt pretty fine...

edit: have you seen the "Fellowship of the homebrew threads"?

 

[RM-MN]

How long does it take?

The biggest amount of time needed is that to get the starches gelatinized (wet through). Once the starches are gelatinized the conversion is very quick. With my very find milling with my Corona mill I get conversion in about 2 minutes. Yes, the conversion is that quick. However, conversion is only part of the beer making, the rest is extraction of flavors. That takes longer, much longer. After experimenting with short mashes and drinking the flavorless beer that resulted I have found that the minimum mash time for conversion and flavor extraction is 20 minutes and I would recommend that 30 minutes is probably much better.

 

[deeve007]

Speaking of human spit, check out "chicha", a traditional beer-like alcohol made in parts of South & Central America where some regions make it by humans chewing the main ingredient (corn), spitting it into a vessel and letting it ferment for a few weeks.

Not all chicha is made this way, so if you tracking down any still using this traditional process you may need to get off the beaten track down there...

 

[deeve007]

Thank you. I honestly HAVE been googling like mad for ages, plus reading books, as well as asking on here. There are loads of opinions online but not necessarily the scientific angle of the why. I will look at that link site thank you.

I've found from my searches on many items that there are experiments like on the Brulosophy site that in effect provide the reasons why, while at the same time he also does experiments that disprove other things. Almost every time I've searched for a "why" about something brew related that site pops up.

But of course don't be afraid to ask here, very helpful community, just a suggestion on how to answer at least a few of your questions, or at least point you in the right direction.

 

[@RoyalGallon]

I'm by no means any sort of expert but my understanding of your questions would be:-

Why is the grain size left so huge for the enzymes that turn starch to sugar?
As mentioned it's all about the lautering - the grain husk forms the filter and the bigger the better. They sink faster and are easier to handle.

How long does it take?
The enzyme breaking the starch molecule into glucose units is almost instantaneous. I've seen a video of a starch granule being 'attacked' by an enzyme and it's gone in a second or two. The time required is about the logisticis of getting the limited number of enzymes round the massive numbers of glucose-glucose bonds.

Is 90 minutes enough for human spit or artificial enzymes to digest starch into sugar?
Again it's down to how much starch versus how much spit.

Why aren't the grains ground finer to give a greater area for the enzymes, or indeed the yeasties, to have a field day with?
The starch that the enzymes get at is stored inside granules that are seen under a microscope. Gelatinisation breaks these open so the chains can be attacked by enzymes. The fineness of the milling is a more macro concern - as long as the floury endosperm is available to be wetted and gelatinised then the starch will be available for the enzymes.

Why isn't beer fermented on the grain for the same reason as above?
The grain husk contains a lot of tannins and so leaving it on (as they do in whisky production) can cause the beer produced to be too astringent.

Aren't yeasties better at getting at tiny sugars than we are capable of clumsily gifting to them? Finer area presumably uses less grain unless there is another reason not to.
The enzymes tun the starch into sugars and the yeast metabolise the sugars. Brewing yeasts aren't generally any good at metabolising starch. As the saying goes; brewers make wort. Yeast makes beer.

I'm not quite getting why beer makers don't use finer grinds of these mediums. There must be finer methods of sparging or leaving the yeasts to sift it themselves like winemaking methods.
Different technologies in the brewhouse - such as a mash filter - instead of a lauter tun would allow that. This would allow a quicker throughput in terms of mashing - but to see any real value you'd have to size the rest of your plant to ensure this was realised in terms of total throughput. The big sized spent grain and a lauter tun works - so generally people use this. As mentioned if you do BIAB (Brew in a bag) then you can mill the grain as much as you like.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Thank you very much to you all. School of beer info all absorbed and some hopefully more learnèd beer will be going into production soon. I also since found a very good author here who describes many stages too, all rather succinctly.

 

[Yooper]

I'd noticed in smaller quantities that a finer grind can be done using the bag method and already have some grains and flours to play with. It's very interesting that starches can be converted by enzymes so fast. Much faster than yeast.

Here's what I think is very important to note. Starches are converted to fermentable sugars by certain enzymes. They are temperature and time dependent, and require the enzymes that come from malting (in the case of things like beer). Fruits already contain simple sugars, so it's not necessary in winemaking.

Yeast will NEVER convert starch to sugar, no matter how much time given.

What I mean is, if you take water and wheat flour, and add yeast, you will not get fermentation. It might spoil from microbes in the air, but it will not give you an actual fermented product. In order for fermentation to occur, the starches need enzymatic changes to become fermentable.

 

[bracconiere]

What I mean is, if you take water and wheat flour, and add yeast, you will not get fermentation.

funny, i make bread that way? maybe not alcoholic bread, but i get fermentation....

edit: and what about sourdough starters?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yeast will NEVER convert starch to sugar, no matter how much time given.

Traditional Lambic brewers intentionally create a wort full of starch to provide food for Brettanomyces yeast, which does consume the starch.

 

[Yooper]

Traditional Lambic brewers intentionally create a wort full of starch to provide food for Brettanomyces yeast, which does consume the starch.

Yes, but I thought we would be talking about saccharomyces cerevisiae in this case. It was my assumption, since we were talking about beginning brewing.

Usually when you use brett, you still make a traditional (ie mash with enzymatic conversion) wort but with some turbid mashing as well. I'm positive we are NOT talking a multi-step turbid mashing here. Nor are we talking about bread yeast and bread making.

Come on you guys, this is the BEGINNERS BEER forum. Not sourdough bread, not turbid mashing. The point I was making is that you can not make beer from mixing flour and water and adding yeast even if you wait. You CAN make beer from mixing malted barley and water and adding yeast.

 

[bracconiere]

Is 90 minutes enough for human spit or artificial enzymes to digest starch into sugar?

you need to boil your starch to gelenatize it. then use alpha at 150f, and stir for about 10 minutes. until liquefied. cool, and add gluco-amylase to the fermenter, along with your yeast....

(if using artificial enzymes)

 

[RPh_Guy]

[Brewer's] yeast will NEVER convert starch to sugar, no matter how much time given.

^ That's all I wanted. Sorry for being pedantic.

funny, i make bread that way? maybe not alcoholic bread, but i get fermentation....

edit: and what about sourdough starters?

Flour does have some simple sugars. It only takes a small amount of fermentation to cause the dough to rise. It does produce a small amount of alcohol, though most of it is lost when baking.
The primary difference between normal bread yeast and sourdough is that the latter has lactic acid bacteria. The bacteria don't attenuate much and produce little or no alcohol.

 

[bracconiere]

It does produce a small amount of alcohol, though most of it is lost when baking.

never underestimate a good placebo effect....

 

[Robert65]

^ That's all I wanted. Sorry for being pedantic.


Flour does have some simple sugars. It only takes as small amount of fermentation to cause the dough to rise. It does produce a small amount of alcohol, though most of it is lost when baking.

Flour will continue to reduce starch to yeast-ready simple sugars as the dough sits. Remember, the germ is full of amylase enzymes. Some of these pass into even white flour, and white flour especially also often has malted barley flour mixed in to standardize the amount of amylase, as farmers now like to harvest before it has reached its peak level in the grain in order to avoid the chance of germination in the field. The continued amylase activity and increased sugar content is also the reason dough fermented for several hours or retarded overnight yields a better crust color than in a rapidly produced bread.

 

[bracconiere]

You can shoot this down in flames and get no complaints.

or just completely go off on a tangent! lol

edit: as a joke

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Here is a good article. As a trueborn Virgoan nerd, I do so love the details....

... plus also wondering how well risen any resulting bread would be, using the grains left after a mash if the useful sugars for rising have already been pinched. Going to have to try it of course. Here.

 

[soccerdad]

When I use spent grain in bread I use small amounts. Otherwise the resulting bread - to me - is too heavy. In recipes that call for 4 cups flour, I use 3/4 to 1 cup spent grain. In recipes that call for 3 cups flour, I use 1/2 to 3/4 cups spent grain. Also, if the grains ate still wet, I adjust the level of water down a bit.

 

[Robert65]

The trick to Treberbrot (spent grain bread) is that you need to first completely dry the grain (sheet pan in a low oven turning often will do) and then mill it into flour. Then use as much as you like for flavor, or for just being frugal and scrimping on bread flour which must be how this started.