Stuck High Gravity Stout

[buildingmotive]

I tried my first high gravity stout brewing the Founders Breakfast Stout clone. I added a pound of lactose to it and pitched S-04. My OG was 1.098. If fermented like a bastard the first week and blew the top off the bucket twice. After about two and a half weeks and no activity in the airlock for over a week I transferred it to secondary. I normally don't check gravity a this point but since it was a big beer I decided to see how it was doing. The gravity was 1.04.

Now that I've done some after the fact research I see I should have given it a little stir to wake everything up. It's already in secondary so too late. I re-pitched a packet of s-04 this morning and now see that I should have hydrated it and pitched once it had kicked off some?

What can I do now to get this thing going again? By the way, was fermenting around 65* since that's the ambient temp in my house. I just turned the heat up to 70 to help.

 

[Hello]

Stirring may not have woken it up but racking to secondary may have re-started fermentation. The problem though is your yeast may not be able to handle anything more and therefore, re-pitching was a good idea. Do not worry that you dry-pitched. There are lots of threads discussing dry pitching and rehydration. There are always going to be various answers, but the last thing you need to worry about right now is that you did dry pitch. It may just take slightly longer to start given the gravity of the beer.

I would lower the temp in your house a bit. Remember, during active fermentation the temperature will rise slightly. While it is 70F in your house, it could be much warmer in the center of that bucket. You will develop off flavors if you're re-starting fermentation. Hate to see you lose a beer at this point, a good beer at that, due to off flavors because of heat.

So I have a fair amount of experience with a stuck stout and had spent a fair amount of time researching, discussing with experienced brewers, and just basically trying to get that stout to wake up. One thing is that you either should have started with 2 packages of S-04 or done a starter. Either or really at that point. Aeration is key in all beers but especially in the bigger beers. Did you aerate and if so, how and how long?

Can you link to the recipe you used? One thing about these darker beers is higher pH levels. Think about heartburn. If there are a lot of darker grains that do not produce a lot of fermentable sugars then there is simply nothing else for the yeast to eat. My issue was just that. I brewed using extract but also had a large grain bill for my steeping grains. In fact, as I look at it now I think to myself how incredibly dumb the recipe is but oddly, it turned out amazing. It is borderline too sweet but not as much as anyone expected. I have shared enough to now know it is not a total trash beer.

So with that all being said (and I apologize for the length) you have little to worry about with the dry pitching. I would have indeed taken the time to check my gravity anytime I rack to secondary. I don't know if the recipe was really necessary to do 2-stage fermentation, but I avoid secondary as much as possible. I'm new and a worry wort (no pun intended).

Give it a couple of days, see if you can tell if there is any airlock activity. After it's been in secondary for 7 days, take another reading. If it is not moving at all, come back and perhaps we can see what we can do. Also, taste it. How does it taste? I mean, 1098 to 1040 is still over 7% ABV but of course, we want to avoid bottle bombs.

FWIW, I did bottle my stout that started at 1067 at 1030. So far so good and they've been in bottles 4 weeks and have been shipped to a few places for people to try. Maybe that will give you some hope.

Side note, for my own learning opportunity, did you use a blow off tube? You noted the lid coming off twice so I wonder about that often.

Again, sorry for the length.

 

[peterj]

I don't think it's stuck, it's just done fermenting. Not knowing the whole recipe I can't say for certain, but with 1 pound of lactose in a 1.098 beer I would think you are probably at FG. 1 pound of lactose will add 0.008 gravity points of completely unfermentable sugar. And if you used extract, that is also fairly high in unfermentables. Also S-04 is not really a highly attenuating yeast. And big stouts are often high in unfermentable specialty grains. All of those things combined probably led to a very high finishing gravity. If you wouldn't mind posting your recipe and process that would help.

Also, even if you had rehydrated the yeast it probably wouldn't have helped. When repitching yeast into beer with alcohol you need to make a starter and pitch it when it is active. Throwing dormant yeast into a high alcohol environment will shock and/or kill most of them.

 

[roastquake]

Consider adding yeast energizer

 

[peterj]

Sorry I just felt like I needed to comment on some of these things that seemed off to me.

I would lower the temp in your house a bit. Remember, during active fermentation the temperature will rise slightly. While it is 70F in your house, it could be much warmer in the center of that bucket. You will develop off flavors if you're re-starting fermentation. Hate to see you lose a beer at this point, a good beer at that, due to off flavors because of heat.

If you're trying to restart a fermentation, raising the temperature is a very good way to do it. Lowering the temperature will make the yeast go dormant faster. All of the off flavors that are going to develop have already done so in the lag phase and the first few days of active fermentation. Even if fermentation started up again (which as I said above, I doubt it will) you won't really get any off flavors from the few gravity points the yeast might go through.

So I have a fair amount of experience with a stuck stout and had spent a fair amount of time researching, discussing with experienced brewers, and just basically trying to get that stout to wake up. One thing is that you either should have started with 2 packages of S-04 or done a starter. Either or really at that point. Aeration is key in all beers but especially in the bigger beers. Did you aerate and if so, how and how long?

This is good advice, though aeration isn't as important when using dry yeast because of the nutrients and sterols that are built into the cell walls of dry yeast.

One thing about these darker beers is higher pH levels. Think about heartburn.

Not sure if you mispoke here, but darker grains tend to lead to lower pH levels in the mash. But if this was extract, pH is not really relevant.

you have little to worry about with the dry pitching

As I said above pitching dormant yeast into a high alcohol environment will not be effective.

 

[DeBAD]

Is it possible you under-pitched in the first place (only one packet of 04 I think you said). Was this a 5-gallon batch? If so for that big of a beer I'm guessing you should have pitched 2-packets at the beginning. I know you said you pitched more yeast 2.5 weeks later but by then not enough fermentables left to get a vigorous ferm again. You might have got a small gravity drop but prob not much.

Also it sounds like it's possible your ferm temp was too high (temp can get quite a bit higher in bucket that outside temp). Especially if your starting temp was higher than you'd like. Therefore your ferm went off like a freight train. Does the batch taste "hot" at all? We did a RIS about a month ago and we put the ferm bucket in a water bath and regularly switched out frozen water bottles in an effort to keep the ferm temp in the mid-60s.

Like "peterj" said, it's probably just done fermenting. Also like "hello" said you still have a beer sitting over 7.0 ABV anyway so things likely aren't as bad as you think.

I'd say ride it out and enjoy that mother when it's ready. Good luck!

 

[JLem]

I agree that it would be good to know more about the recipe. While I would expect a beer like this to finish high, 1.040 seems too high.

Might have underpitched and so you just didn't get the proper numbers of yeast to chew through this big a beer before conditions got too hostile and the yeast couldn't keep going - which is why I doubt repitching this particular yeast again will not work - you've got a high ABV, low pH, low oxygen, and low nutrient environment now - definitely not conditions conducive to happy yeast.

However, you might try depitching a highly tolerant yeast - like a champagne yeast (properly hydrated). If that doesn't work nothing will...or it might actually be done.

 

[peterj]

However, you might try depitching a highly tolerant yeast - like a champagne yeast (properly hydrated). If that doesn't work nothing will...or it might actually be done.

Champagne yeast has been bred to consume the very simple sugars found in grape must, and so they don't do very well with the more complex sugars derived from grains. I especially wouldn't expect them to do anything with the unfermentable sugars that are left now. Most ale yeasts are tolerant of alcohol levels much higher than 7% so if you are going to pitch more yeast, it should be a highly attenuative ale strain.

One thing you could do is pitch some saison yeast. Saison yeasts are incredibly high attenuators and can chew through a lot of things that most ale yeasts cannot. I would use Belle Saison dry yeast because it's cheaper than liquid and has very high attenuation. You shouldn't really get much, if any, saison character from the few gravity points it would hopefully chew through. Also I'm not sure how low it would take it. It's been known to have 90%-100% attenuation, but with 1 pound of lactose and such a high gravity you would probably be guaranteed to have some body left.

 

[IL1kebeer]

sorry i just felt like i needed to comment on some of these things that seemed off to me. If you're trying to restart a fermentation, raising the temperature is a very good way to do it. Lowering the temperature will make the yeast go dormant faster. All of the off flavors that are going to develop have already done so in the lag phase and the first few days of active fermentation. Even if fermentation started up again (which as i said above, i doubt it will) you won't really get any off flavors from the few gravity points the yeast might go through. This is good advice, though aeration isn't as important when using dry yeast because of the nutrients and sterols that are built into the cell walls of dry yeast. Not sure if you mispoke here, but darker grains tend to lead to lower ph levels in the mash. But if this was extract, ph is not really relevant. As i said above pitching dormant yeast into a high alcohol environment will not be effective.

+1 +1 +1 +1

 

[JLem]

Champagne yeast has been bred to consume the very simple sugars found in grape must, and so they don't do very well with the more complex sugars derived from grains. I especially wouldn't expect them to do anything with the unfermentable sugars that are left now. Most ale yeasts are tolerant of alcohol levels much higher than 7% so if you are going to pitch more yeast, it should be a highly attenuative ale strain.

One thing you could do is pitch some saison yeast. Saison yeasts are incredibly high attenuators and can chew through a lot of things that most ale yeasts cannot. I would use Belle Saison dry yeast because it's cheaper than liquid and has very high attenuation. You shouldn't really get much, if any, saison character from the few gravity points it would hopefully chew through. Also I'm not sure how low it would take it. It's been known to have 90%-100% attenuation, but with 1 pound of lactose and such a high gravity you would probably be guaranteed to have some body left.

Champagne yeast actually are not much different from ale yeasts in terms of their ability to ferment sugars. But, champagne yeast are much more tolerant of not only alcohol, but also low pH, low nutrients, and low oxygen.

If there are fermentable sugars left in this beer, the champagne yeast will deal with them just as well, if not better, than an ale yeast.

Now, if you really want to ferment as many as the sugars as possible, you'll want to pitch a lager strain, which is can ferment more complex sugars than either ale or champagne yeast. I suppose this is a viable option at this point, though I might worry about the temperature being too high...though it might not matter at this point.

 

[peterj]

Now, if you really want to ferment as many as the sugars as possible, you'll want to pitch a lager strain, which is can ferment more complex sugars than either ale or champagne yeast. I suppose this is a viable option at this point, though I might worry about the temperature being too high...though it might not matter at this point.

+1. That's true, I've never though about doing that.

 

[buildingmotive]

One thing is that you either should have started with 2 packages of S-04 or done a starter. Either or really at that point. Aeration is key in all beers but especially in the bigger beers. Did you aerate and if so, how and how long?

I used 2 packs and aerated with on O2 tank before pitching

Can you link to the recipe you used?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/founders-breakfast-stout-clone-139078/
I added in a pound of lactose

Side note, for my own learning opportunity, did you use a blow off tube? You noted the lid coming off twice so I wonder about that often.

I did use a blow off, but the airlock had a cross pattern in the bottom that got clogged. I used one that was open and that helped.


The recipe was all grain mashed at 155.

 

[peterj]

I used 2 packs and aerated with on O2 tank before pitching


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/founders-breakfast-stout-clone-139078/
I added in a pound of lactose




I did use a blow off, but the airlock had a cross pattern in the bottom that got clogged. I used one that was open and that helped.


The recipe was all grain mashed at 155.

Yeah I think it's done then. 155F is on the high side for a 1.098 beer especially with a pound of lactose and a good portion of unfermentable specialty grains. Though you might want to try a lager or saison yeast if you feel like it. I just brewed a 1.099 RIS mashed at 154F and fermented with Nottingham and it finished at 1.032 with no lactose.

If it tastes good it might just be a good dessert beer. One to make a beer float out of!

 

[buildingmotive]

To be honest I was shooting for the sweeter side. I even backed down on the IBUs. It was going to be my "win people over to stout", stout. It tasted great when I sampled it. Im thinking some bourbon soaked chips might just round it out perfectly.

I am noticing this afternoon that there are the oily bubbles forming in what little head space there is. From the recipe thread this is typical for this beer. I may have a little more fermentation happening. I knew it would finish high, I was just thinking in the high 1.02s to the low 1.03s.


Thanks a lot to everyone for your replies and help on this.