Stressed Yeast?

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Brewitt

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I'm trying to make sense of a series of problems I've been having in a series of recent beers that haven't been a big issue previously. I am now attributing them to stressed yeast. I should say that I have been transitioning from brew-in-a-bag, which I have been doing for several years, to traditional mashing during this time. I don't think that has much, if anything to do with it because some of these issues bridge that transition. I should also say that, except for one circumstance that is noted below, I always grow starters, usually from large inoculations of pure yeast cultures of various types. My pitching rate is usually between 200 and 300 billion cells per 5 gallons. Next, all of the beers in question have been fermented in a modified refrigerator at 65-68F.

There are two issues that have reared their ugly heads.
First, I have had a number of poorly attenuated beers. Although some have been quite high gravity (1.08-1.09), others have been my typical 1.05-1.07 range. Most were fermented with WLP001 or similar (rescued from Ballast Point Sculpin). One, a 1.09 IPA, I tried to kickstart using a late addition WLP090 with relatively little success. The beer ultimately did mature into a very malty but not worty IPA that I have enjoyed drinking but it took nearly two months. Most of my fermentations are complete within 2 weeks and then conditioned and dry hopped as necessary. On those that were stuck, I have also tried bumping the temperature up to 70F after 5 days of fermentation with relatively little success.

Second, and much more disturbing have been a couple of very estery beers. First, I had a 1.065 IPA fermented with US-05, a yeast I hadn't used before but pitched dry after disposing of a starter I suspected of being contaminated. That beer was bursting with ethyl butyrate, tropical fruity esters, much more than I had ever tasted in any beer. Although knowing I pitched this directly into the beer, that result wouldn't have surprised me, but I know a couple people who do that routinely and brew very quaffable beer. Again, I had controlled temperature during the entire fermentation. More recently I brewed a Belgian pale with around the same OG using a yeast recovered from North Coast Pranqster that I have used many times with great success to give a mildly estery Belgian character. I tastes that yesterday after two weeks between 65 and 68F and found it to overwhelmingly isoamyl acetate imitation banana flavored. Esters attack again! Although I can't be certain about the pitching rate (the settled starter seemed a little low in yeast), it was not excessively low.

My assessment of the composite of these problems is poor aeration. Although I have always found my fermentations to go well with most yeast with just a vigorous shaking of the carboy before pitching, I am suspecting that, for whatever reason, my luck with that has run out. I have decided that I am going to aerate using pure o2 and pitch a little more aggressively and see where that leads me both in terms of attenuation and in terms of esters. I am wondering what folks think of this assessment and whether they have other suggestions.
 
Have you triple checked the calibration of your thermometer for your mash, and your fermentation control?

An o2 system is a worthy upgrade regardless, and will likely improve your beer in general.
 
Have you triple checked the calibration of your thermometer for your mash, and your fermentation control?

An o2 system is a worthy upgrade regardless, and will likely improve your beer in general.

Thanks for your comments. The thermometers on my new brewing system need to be checked. I appreciate that is a potential problem. However, the thermometer on my other system, where I started having the attenuation problems, is correct and was used for many other successful beers. I must admit, I do have significant frustration with temperature consistency across the mast tun so I use multiple thermometers.

The fermentation temperatures are correct. Checked with two different thermometers.

I'm looking forward to trying the O2. Maybe next weekend.
 
High mash temp is the easiest solution for the first problem, the wort is not fermentable. It could be other mash problems; are you measuring mash ph, what was it? Are you over acidifying your sparge water? You are dechlorinating? Insufficient pitch/lack of o2 could be the case, but you weren't having problems before, you can try adding a drop of olive oil to the starters, I dont think it works as well as proper oxygenation, but it costs nothing.

What is your lag time before a full krausen? Has it been different for the same gravity beer than before?

I really dont know how you got fruity esters out of us-05. A slight apricot maybe. Its not a hop flavor you are misplacing? It did ferment under 70?

If its the first gen on the pranqster yeast, id discount that as not useful data, the bottle could have been really old, stored poorly, sometimes yeast harvested from dregs just isnt right.
 
This must be really frustrating... I don't see anything in your process that would cause the problems you describe.

Temperature came to mind for me also.

Has anything in your process changed around the time you first started having problems?

Water, new equipment in use for all the problem beers, common ingredient not used before, cleaning or sanitation methods or chemicals?

Look for something common to all the problem beers.
 
Let's see if I can answer the questions:

I agree the poor attenuation could conceivably been a separate issue, high mash pH. I was really trying to come up with a single explanation since I had a spate of problems all at once.

It could be other mash problems; are you measuring mash ph, what was it? Are you over acidifying your sparge water? You are dechlorinating? Insufficient pitch/lack of o2 could be the case, but you weren't having problems before, you can try adding a drop of olive oil to the starters, I dont think it works as well as proper oxygenation, but it costs nothing.
I didn't measure the mash pH. I have checked before and was around 5.4. My water is run through a carbon filter. In the case of the banana beer, I may have been a bit heavy handed with the acidification of the sparge water. It was my first time doing that and I didn't have a pH meter. I just guessed based upon my starting pH and the amount of acid malt I have to add to my mash. I will check next time with a meter.

What is your lag time before a full krausen? Has it been different for the same gravity beer than before?

I really dont know how you got fruity esters out of us-05. A slight apricot maybe. Its not a hop flavor you are misplacing? It did ferment under 70?
For both the banana beer (Pranqster yeast) and the fruity US-05, yeast was pitched about 10PM at around 70F. It cooled to 65 from there. By morning the Pranqster yeast had formed a krausen forming and by evening it was blowing off. In the case of US-05, the krausen may have taken 24 hours.

If its the first gen on the pranqster yeast, id discount that as not useful data, the bottle could have been really old, stored poorly, sometimes yeast harvested from dregs just isnt right.
The Pranqster was stepped up and harvested and has been used a number of times. This particular sample was grown into a starter from the initial stepped up starter (it had been frozen at -80C in glycerol).

The strange thing about both of these beers is they were both derived from half a wort from a single mash and the other half seems to have fermented fine under the same conditions, in one case with WLP001 and in the other with a similar yeast rescued from Sculpin IPA and treated similarly to the Pranqster yeast. Although, as mentioned in the original post, the Pranqster seems to have been a significantly smaller pitch than the Sculpin.
 
Has anything in your process changed around the time you first started having problems?

Water, new equipment in use for all the problem beers, common ingredient not used before, cleaning or sanitation methods or chemicals?

Look for something common to all the problem beers.

That is how I got to my prior conclusion but it could have been a constellation of problems for the constellation of brews. My answers to the last post summarize that. This is all greatly confused by the changes I have made in my brewing system. I am going to check my thermometers and pH as well as oxygenating my wort before pitching. I will also try to be more consistent with my starters. Too many variables is probably the problem.

Thanks for the input from everyone.
 
I noticed similar issues with attenuation when switching to all grain. It boiled down to not enough oxygen. When extract brewing you add up to 1/2 of the total wort as tap water that is oxygenated,so shaking a little works. Since using pure oxygen on beers 1.055 and higher i don't have problems that way, which lets me concentrate on mash temp to control attenuation.
 
I noticed similar issues with attenuation when switching to all grain. It boiled down to not enough oxygen. When extract brewing you add up to 1/2 of the total wort as tap water that is oxygenated,so shaking a little works. Since using pure oxygen on beers 1.055 and higher i don't have problems that way, which lets me concentrate on mash temp to control attenuation.

The thing is that I have brewed all grain for several years. But maybe its just never caught up with me.
 
I see a lot of info, but no specifics to each brew. We need to know EVERYTHING from mash to package per batch to help with an issue like this. There are just too many variables affecting yeast performance.
 
I understand cjgenever. It's just too much info to post. I have been studying all of it for a while. It may well be a bunch of independent mishaps but I was trying to find a common thread. I'm going to assume the major culprit was poor oxygenation and, in a couple cases, under pitching and see where that takes me.


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Perhaps concentrate on one brew and go from there? There are entire books written on what you're needing to fix. I can recommend Yeast... great read
 
Exactly where I'm headed. I have "Yeast". I also do research on yeast so I'm especially frustrated by this.


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Well...Don't know what else to say man.

Us-05 (hydrated of course) should have about 19g for 1.065 og. Also, it throws esters if too low or too high a temp. Peach on the low, banana Peach on high. These qualities reduce dramatically if washed and repitched. Did the us-05 attenuate properly? If so I would think it's a yeast problem... remove some of the variables. I.e. try getting some fresh vials rather than harvesting and throw them on the stir plate.

Do a batch of 1060 to 1070 ipa or apa and use TWO packets of REHYDRATED us-05 (again, reduce variables. Dry yeast is simple and effective). Aerate well, maybe a toothpick swirl of evoo... You don't need pure o2 at this gravity. Place controller probe against fv with insulation over it. I use electrical tape and fiberglass insulation... use whatever you got. Start ferment at 63-64°. As it slows slowly raise it up to 70. Should hit 70 at the end of fermentation while the yeast are still in suspension and working. Let it rest there for the yeast to clean up.

If you do this with a pale malt bill you will get 80+% attenuation and little esters. If it doesn't attenuate either your mash is way too high or your ferm temp is way too low and/or unsteady.

If it ferments slow and is peachy then your ferment temp is low. If it ferments fast and is peachy banana your ferment temp is too high.

The temps are all things that shouldn't be in the equation though. I'm assuming you have one good quality calibratable thermometer and have calibrated all your other probes with it on a regular basis.
 
Well...Don't know what else to say man.

Us-05 (hydrated of course) should have about 19g for 1.065 og. Also, it throws esters if too low or too high a temp. Peach on the low, banana Peach on high. These qualities reduce dramatically if washed and repitched. Did the us-05 attenuate properly? If so I would think it's a yeast problem... remove some of the variables. I.e. try getting some fresh vials rather than harvesting and throw them on the stir plate.

Do a batch of 1060 to 1070 ipa or apa and use TWO packets of REHYDRATED us-05 (again, reduce variables. Dry yeast is simple and effective). Aerate well, maybe a toothpick swirl of evoo... You don't need pure o2 at this gravity. Place controller probe against fv with insulation over it. I use electrical tape and fiberglass insulation... use whatever you got. Start ferment at 63-64°. As it slows slowly raise it up to 70. Should hit 70 at the end of fermentation while the yeast are still in suspension and working. Let it rest there for the yeast to clean up.

If you do this with a pale malt bill you will get 80+% attenuation and little esters. If it doesn't attenuate either your mash is way too high or your ferm temp is way too low and/or unsteady.

If it ferments slow and is peachy then your ferment temp is low. If it ferments fast and is peachy banana your ferment temp is too high.

The temps are all things that shouldn't be in the equation though. I'm assuming you have one good quality calibratable thermometer and have calibrated all your other probes with it on a regular basis.

Thanks cjgenever. I appreciate your in depth comments. My last brew incorporated a lot of your suggestions. I did not use US05 because that is not my "go to" yeast. I only used that last time because I was concerned about the starter I had grown up. Instead, I used WLP001 and a big starter. Besides a little higher pitching temperature, I proceeded as you describe. I used a recipe and hopping schedule I have used a number of times to produce a very nice IPA. Guess what? I got a very nice moderate strength IPA (1.07 OG, 1.014 FG) that is just carbonating. It took a little longer that I expected, but it got to 79% attenuation, just about where I expected. The other half of that was done with the Pranqster yeast. That is giving me the banana, but after another week in the fermenter, that is mellowing and achieving additional complexity so it is not so objectionable. More like the anticipated Belgian profile but definitely not what I am used to. I think I will toss that yeast and, perhaps, make my own blend.

All that said, I am going to get my wort cooler before pitching and give my fermentations a little longer before passing judgement. As stated previously, this could have been a spectrum of unanticipated problems that I was trying to explain with one problem.
 
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