Strange Things Happening with my Recent Brews...

[vindikator49]

Ok folks. I'm in need of some serious help.

I have been brewing all grain batches for approximately 5 years now and never come across what I've got going on now. I need help and fast.

My equipment is as follows:

10 Gallon circular cooler with false bottom
10 Gallon boil kettle
8 Gal. stainless HLT
Blichmann Therminator

I have always based recipes on a 65% efficiency.

Ok. So here we go...

I have brewed the following recipe on multiple occasions. Four times to be exact. It's a pale ale and the first three brews are as follows (with minor variations)...

Recipe -

10 lbs 2 Row
1 lb Cara 10L
1 lb Cara 20L

I mashed 3.75 gallons into the cooler at 164F, which brought my mash to 149F. My pH was 5.1. The duration of my mash was 60 minutes. I conducted a vorlauf for approximately 10 minutes and then sparged with 170F water for about 20-25 minutes (fly sparge).

My boil volume was just under 7.5 gallons. I conducted a 60 minute boil adding an ounce of hops at 30 minutes, half an ounce at 10 minutes, and half an ounce at 2 minutes left in the boil. I threw in a whirl floc tablet with 15 minutes left in the boil.

I pitched my yeast, WLP060, at 72 degrees.

Ok. SO the first three times I brewed this guy it came out to 1.050 +- .001. Pretty close to what I'm looking for. This last time I brewed it, comes out to 1.040 and finished at 1.004.

Next beer I brew. Similar grist, coming in at 11.5 lbs. Mashes at 150. OG comes out to 1.040 when target was again 1.050.

Beer I just brewed. Grist is at 10.3 lbs. I have brewed THIS beer at least 4 other times as well. What's my gravity after getting it into the fermenter? 1.032.

I am now at the point of losing my mind. I've changed nothing in my equipment except adding the Blichmann chiller. Please, anyone, help.

 

[day_trippr]

All things equal, and assuming you've been hitting your pre- and post-boil volumes, given the fly sparge I'd suspect channeling.
It's the one process that can go totally fubar wrt OG from one batch vs another.
Also, in general a 25 minute fly sparge is quite short. But if that's been your practice, it would explain the low average efficiency but not the wild OG swings.

Cheers!

 

[vindikator49]

What should my sparge/vorlauf times be?

 

[IslandLizard]

65% efficiency is pretty low by any standard. Is that mash or brewhouse efficiency?

Most efficiency problems lie in the crush being too coarse. Do you crush your own malt or have it done elsewhere? If you do it yourself you have all the control. Otherwise it's out of your hands, and may vary over time.

 

[vindikator49]

My local home-brew shop has the mill set up right there so I throw my grains through it one time. That's all I've ever done...so I'm pretty confused why the sudden change..

 

[day_trippr]

For a five gallon batch I typically shoot for 45-50 minutes.
No vorlauf included as I recirculate the mash from ~5 minutes after dough-in.

A changing crush would be outside of the "all things equal" clause, but perhaps your lhbs re-gapped their mill. Also a loose crush could indeed explain the low average efficiency...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

Do you have a large deadspace in that mash tun? If it doesn't drain all the way, it will tank your mash efficiency. Most false bottoms use a diptube that reaches the bottom while the space between the false bottom and the mash tun bottom is relatively small. Not that this will attribute to a sudden change, though.

I still put my pennies on your grist being too coarse, and the possibility someone tinkered with the gap meanwhile. Maybe time to look for a Corona knock off mill?

I know one (small) brew store where they purposely widened the gap because it took too long to mill the grain!

 

[Ashevillain]

That would be messed up if the lhbs was to blame. But if the process and volumes are the same, it would seem to be the main culprit. You could ask them to run it through twice and see if that changes anything. And if your pre-boil gravity is off you could add some dme in the boil, not ideal but its a fix in case it happens again while your trying to figure out if its the crush or not.

 

[Sadu]

I'm thinking grain crush as well. the rule I apply is that if I can find any whole kernels then that's a problem.

FWIW the grain mill was one of the best investments I made.

 

[RM-MN]

My local home-brew shop has the mill set up right there so I throw my grains through it one time. That's all I've ever done...so I'm pretty confused why the sudden change..

Ah, the convenience of having a mill right at the LHBS. What a wonderful convenience.....for them especially. They get to sell you more grain because your efficiency went down....probably due to wear on the mill resulting in a larger gap but possibly someone changing the setting. If you want to have consistency in your brewing, you control the mill yourself by buying one. It doesn't even have to be an expensive mill, many get great efficiency with consistency with a cheap Corona mill, about $30 now.

 

[Ashevillain]

A mill is one of those things that everyone would want, but you shouldn't need one, especially if you have no space to store bulk grain. Without buying in bulk you can't reap the full benefits/savings of a mill.

Ideally we should be able to communicate that you need a finer crush to the LHBS.

To me it doesn't seem like the indirect cost of poor crushes would outweigh the low margin benefit of selling more grain. Most brewers would probably look elsewhere entirely after realizing the store was up-selling them needlessly.

 

[IslandLizard]

A mill is one of those things that everyone would want, but you shouldn't need one, especially if you have no space to store bulk grain. Without buying in bulk you can't reap the full benefits/savings of a mill.

Ideally we should be able to communicate that you need a finer crush to the LHBS.

To me it doesn't seem like the indirect cost of poor crushes would outweigh the low margin benefit of selling more grain. Most brewers would probably look elsewhere entirely after realizing the store was up-selling them needlessly.

Good points, but being in charge of your own milling has a lot of benefits. I've never seen the argument fly trying to convince a store to change the gap. They may mill twice, which is no substitute for doing it right, once. Those who BIAB are totally SOL, as their grist (and efficiency) can benefit from being milled even finer.

The plot sickens when you have wheat or rye in your grist. Those kernels are much smaller than barley, and will pass through mostly uncrushed. I've seen people walk out the stores with their "wheat beer" grist, most wheat being uncrushed. I've also tasted those, where's the wheat?

Most homebrewers don't have much choice shopping elsewhere. The next store maybe too far or has a less stellar selection or they are real d!cks.

Although I'm not 100% convinced the brew stores set their mill to extra coarse to sell 20-30% extra malt, it may be part of their plan. It could be sheer ignorance to use whatever factory setting the mill came with, or some arbitrary gap setting found online or used by pro brewers in multi barrel continuously agitated mash systems.

That said, I regard a mill as essential equipment for the serious homebrewer, even if it's a Corona type with a hand crank.

 

[theowlman16]

I crush mine at my LHBS, always send it through twice. And it is adjustable if needed. They let me dump all my grains for the batch in one container, and crush it all together. Easy peezy.

 

[tracyk]

It wasn't long after I starting getting into all grain that I bought one of the Corona knock offs because of the LHBS being so far away. At that time I did not buy grain in bulk, I just wanted more control over my brews and better mash efficiency as I was getting in the upper 60's and low 70's. Since then I have not regretted the decision I made. Now my mash efficiency is in the mid to upper 80's. I have since bought a 2 roller grain mill and made a cabinet for it.

It would be nice if there was some way that brewers could set the gap at the LHBS. That would make everybody happy. So maybe if you do not want a mill, run it through twice and see if that makes a difference in your gravity.

 

[vindikator49]

Alright all. Been a while so I figured I would update y'all. Turns out it was the mill at my LHBS. When I went back in, he checked it and tightened everything up. Next two brews went swimmingly. Went back in to re-brew the wheat and he comp'ed all the grain. Thanks for the help and the advice.

 

[btcost]

The mills at LHBS can be really out of wack.
I have my own mill, and as others have stated it's a great investment.

If you don't want to buy a mill yet. Just try double crushing at the store. That's what a lot of the guys in my club do.

And pick up some DME to have on hand. If your OG is low, you can adjust it.