Quantcast

Stout Substitution?

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

jlinz

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 14, 2015
Messages
1,296
Reaction score
1,244
Location
Dayton, OH
Howdy folks,

I am making a partial mash dry stout. The recipe calls for roasted barley at the last 5 minutes of the mash. Don't have any. I do have Fawcett pale chocolate malt. Think I can somehow incorporate this instead? Any ideas how if so?
 
OP
jlinz

jlinz

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 14, 2015
Messages
1,296
Reaction score
1,244
Location
Dayton, OH
That's what I was afraid of. Well, I have pale malt, light dme, chocolate malt, flaked barley, Chinooks, and safale-04. Homebrew store is out of roasted barley.
 

hanuswalrus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
886
Reaction score
98
Location
Chicago
If you're not able to get any roasted barley, I would say your best bet w/ what you have would be Chocolate malt. Just expect a less roasty, slightly less dark finished beer. Do they have black patent malt? You could use a little bit of that instead, but a little less than however much roasted barley the recipe called for.
 

slym2none

"Lazy extract brewer."
Joined
Apr 3, 2015
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
2,453
Location
Durham
Is it possible to roast the flaked barley you have? Total newbie question, pardon my ignorance...
 

Yooper

Ale's What Cures You!
Staff member
Admin
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
74,603
Reaction score
12,197
Location
UP/Snowbird in Florida
Oh, sorry about the duplicate thread!
No problem- it's not really a duplicate. Plus, this is a forum where we can talk back and forth, not just look things up, so you're good!

I probably wouldn't even try to make most stouts without roasted barley, although I do have one stout recipe that uses 0 roasted barley. It has a "coffee" roasted flavor to it, and it's not very roasty like some stouts are, but if you may want something like that, here is the recipe: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=210376
 

Yesfan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
2,173
Reaction score
440
Location
Cleveland
Just curious, if he went forth with the pale chocolate, what would the finished beer be called if he had no roasted barley? Is is just another brown?
 

unionrdr

Homebrewer, author & air gun collector
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
39,161
Reaction score
3,782
Location
Sheffield
Maybe something akin to a coffee brown? I used English chocolate malt with black prinz & others in my dry stout this last batch. I keep watchin' that avatar & think back to the road goin' up into the holler on our mountain...:D
 

BlueHouseBrewhaus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
1,655
Reaction score
473
Location
Middletown
Not sure what the process is but I wonder if the OP could make some roasted barley from some of the pale malt. I don't know how complex the roasting process is but it might be worth trying. I'll bet there's a thread here somewhere on roasting your own grains.
 

slym2none

"Lazy extract brewer."
Joined
Apr 3, 2015
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
2,453
Location
Durham
Not sure what the process is but I wonder if the OP could make some roasted barley from some of the pale malt. I don't know how complex the roasting process is but it might be worth trying. I'll bet there's a thread here somewhere on roasting your own grains.
Post #7 in this very thread...

*sigh*
 

lumpher

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
5,083
Reaction score
287
Location
Texas
maybe roast... :D .. j/k ... without roasted barley, i wouldn't even go for a stout
 

Jwin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
1,970
Reaction score
607
Location
nashville
I would say use a combo of chocolate and carafa II/III if you could get those
Or just make a porter.

But seriously the thread I posted was the exact same situation. Funny how that happens
 

chickypad

lupulin shift victim
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,820
Reaction score
1,342
Location
SF Peninsula
You can use black malt in a stout. Folks will say black is for porters and roasted barley is for stouts but the rule is not absolute, black was used both historically and in some current commercial stouts. Sierra stout used to be all black malt but now is a combo of black and roasted barley. Jamil's sweet stout in BCS uses all black patent at 9.6% and no roasted barley. It's a different character, I actually find it gives a smoother roast rather than the more espresso-like roast of roasted barley. I know you will read about it tasting like charcoal if used in high amounts but it seems that everyone who says that hasn't actually used it a lot. I've never personally gotten that and I use it frequently. I would be worried that using all debittered malts like carafa special or blackprinz would not give you enough roast for a stout.
 

unionrdr

Homebrewer, author & air gun collector
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
39,161
Reaction score
3,782
Location
Sheffield
Using black prinz & English chocolate malt, it definitely doesn't have that heavy roastiness/bitterness to it that it did with a big load of black patent. But a small amount of black patent added to the previous two might be ideal?
 

masaba

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
175
Reaction score
46
You can use black malt in a stout. Folks will say black is for porters and roasted barley is for stouts but the rule is not absolute, black was used both historically and in some current commercial stouts. Sierra stout used to be all black malt but now is a combo of black and roasted barley. Jamil's sweet stout in BCS uses all black patent at 9.6% and no roasted barley. It's a different character, I actually find it gives a smoother roast rather than the more espresso-like roast of roasted barley. I know you will read about it tasting like charcoal if used in high amounts but it seems that everyone who says that hasn't actually used it a lot. I've never personally gotten that and I use it frequently. I would be worried that using all debittered malts like carafa special or blackprinz would not give you enough roast for a stout.
I think the charcoal flavor really depends upon the PH of your mash when using dark malts. My guess is that if your mash PH gets really low you end up with a really acrid, harsh beer. Most people have hard enough water that this isn't a problem, but if you brew a stout with pure RO water, you might run into it.
 

Jwin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
1,970
Reaction score
607
Location
nashville
I think the charcoal flavor really depends upon the PH of your mash when using dark malts. My guess is that if your mash PH gets really low you end up with a really acrid, harsh beer. Most people have hard enough water that this isn't a problem, but if you brew a stout with pure RO water, you might run into it.
Also, the length of the mash. Some add thier roasted grains late in the mash. I haven't't tried it myself...
 

Yesfan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
2,173
Reaction score
440
Location
Cleveland
Also, the length of the mash. Some add thier roasted grains late in the mash. I haven't't tried it myself...
How late in the mash? I usually just add all mine at once since it's usually all bagged in one bag from the vendor.


Could one also not add it at all and just steep it while the wort is heating towards boiling, kinda like a extract batch?
 

Jwin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
1,970
Reaction score
607
Location
nashville
From the mad alchemist :
Don’t mash your roasted-and-kilned grains (e.g. chocolate and black malts). Roasted grains will drive the pH down considerably, so it’s difficult to keep the pH high no matter what fancy solution you use during the mash. Roasted grains have the wonderful benefit of not needing to be mashed. So, the best solution, in my opinion, is to mash everything except for your roasted grains in your MLT, and steep your roasted grains in a separate vessel (below 170 F) simultaneously at around 2 quarts per pound. Then, combine the wort created by the roasted grains with the mashed wort in the brew kettle.

If you don’t want to steep the grains, you can essentially brew a coffee with the dark grains with either a more traditional method (heat) or you can cold brew it overnight to really avoid the astringency as much as possible… it’ll just take longer. If you cold brew, you should probably bring the temperature of the concoction to 170 F after removing the grain to pasteurize it.

Then, you can add the coffee-like brew whenever you want (start of the boil, end of the boil, directly in the fermentation vessel, even just before bottling). All will impart different character, so experiment!

Note that you might not get full extraction from all roasted grains when steeping. According to some experiments run by John Palmer, it looks like Black Patent and Roasted Barley are some of the only roasted malts that have the same yield as mashing when steeped. As such, you might only exclude those from your sweet stout mash, or you can increase the amount of other grains accordingly (e.g. multiply the ounces of Chocolate Malt you use by ~1.5-1.6 to make up for the difference).

I would not recommend sparging with the roasted wort, in part because you’re going to impact the sparge pH pretty significantly, and in part because you’re going to leave some of your flavors behind.

Hitting the ideal concentrations of all ions in the brewing water as well as the ideal pH is very easy when you leave out your roasted malts (and any other malts that don’t need to be mashed, such as caramel/crystal). By steeping the roasted malts (and, optionally, your crystal malts) separate from the mash, you might end up with a much better sweet stout in the end. As someone commented, you could also steep the grains in a bag while you transfer to the boil kettle from your MLT, which sounds like a great idea.
 

Yooper

Ale's What Cures You!
Staff member
Admin
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
74,603
Reaction score
12,197
Location
UP/Snowbird in Florida
Yes, but..............

the mash pH is almost NEVER too low. It's usually too high, and the dark grains often help to hit the proper mash pH.

Some experts (like Gordon Strong) always recommend adding the roasted grains at the end of the mash, while others mash them.

I mash mine, but I make few roasted barley beers, and my mash pH is rarely below 5.3 so I don't have that issue.

And of course you wouldn't sparge with the wort- I never heard of anybody recommending that anyway- that would be crazy.
 

Yesfan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
2,173
Reaction score
440
Location
Cleveland
Yes, but..............

the mash pH is almost NEVER too low. It's usually too high, and the dark grains often help to hit the proper mash pH.

Some experts (like Gordon Strong) always recommend adding the roasted grains at the end of the mash, while others mash them.

I mash mine, but I make few roasted barley beers, and my mash pH is rarely below 5.3 so I don't have that issue.

And of course you wouldn't sparge with the wort- I never heard of anybody recommending that anyway- that would be crazy.

If you add them at the end of the mash, do you let them mash for X amount of minutes, or is it just a matter of dumping the grains in the tun and immediately start draining/vorloufing.

I've only been brewing for a little over 3 years now but I mash everything for an hour. My stouts have came out pretty good, but if holding out for the roasted grains is a better option, I'll definitely look to do that on the next go around. I'm sure I'll brew more stouts between now and March.




Man, just when I think I've gotten the basics down, you guys throw a curve ball at me! LOL!
 

hanuswalrus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
886
Reaction score
98
Location
Chicago
I've always just mashed all of my grains together, including roasted barley. All of my stouts turn out nicely. Never too astringently roasty.

However, I am curious to try the late addition of the roasted malts into the mash just to see how it turns out. According to what I've been told (and what I've read somewhere on this forum.. can't remember exactly which thread right now), it's recommended to add those roasted malts with 15 mins remaining in the mash.
 
OP
jlinz

jlinz

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 14, 2015
Messages
1,296
Reaction score
1,244
Location
Dayton, OH
Thanks for all the advice! I'm thinking I'll go pick up some black patent and go with the chocolate malt as well, and I guess leaving out any flaked barley. So, I guess Ill be making a porter. Do I need to crush and mash the black patent or can I put it in the mash uncrushed?
 

Yooper

Ale's What Cures You!
Staff member
Admin
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
74,603
Reaction score
12,197
Location
UP/Snowbird in Florida
Thanks for all the advice! I'm thinking I'll go pick up some black patent and go with the chocolate malt as well, and I guess leaving out any flaked barley. So, I guess Ill be making a porter. Do I need to crush and mash the black patent or can I put it in the mash uncrushed?
all grains should always be crushed.
 

Jwin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
1,970
Reaction score
607
Location
nashville
Yooper, thanks for interjecting. Like I said, I've read it, but never practiced. I get the PH issue. I just wonder the effect on taste and srm on waiting on roasted additions.
 
OP
jlinz

jlinz

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 14, 2015
Messages
1,296
Reaction score
1,244
Location
Dayton, OH
all grains should always be crushed.
Oops, I meant can I just steep the uncrushed black patent? I may not be able to get it crushed and do not have a mill yet and don't want to do that rolling pin thing! ��
 

unionrdr

Homebrewer, author & air gun collector
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
39,161
Reaction score
3,782
Location
Sheffield
Before I got my grain mill, I used a small food processor. Just pulsed the grains a few times to get them crushed a bit. Usually a bit fine for my liking, but for biab, it worked fine. but the chilled wort definitely needed to be whirl-pooled & poured through a fine mesh strainer into primary. Lots of floury stuff strained out.
 

ChucknBeer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
79
Reaction score
9
What do you guys think about a Stout with only dehusked roasted barley and some munich, but no roasted malt? would it be lacking in roastiness?
 
Top