Steeping grains after the boil

[BucksIPA]

I was thinking about adding the steeping grains after flameout. I hop at 170-180 after boil and let sit for a while. I am wondering if I can add my steeping grains at around 160 and keep it at 150-155 for 30 minutes. I guess I am trying to avoid bringing what the steeping grains add to the wort to a boil temp. I am also trying to do a shorter boil time of 30 minutes this time around. I only boil my hops at the longest of 30 minutes.

Anybody doing this. I guess there is a bacterial risk of not boiling, but at 160 pathogens will be killed in 30 minutes. 150-155 not sure.

 

[sfish]

I would not do this. I would think it more important to cool your wort as quickly as possible then not to boil your steeping grains results. I assume this is an extract recipe.

I have read of others using a 30 minute boil this increases the cost due to requiring more hops.

 

[peterj]

Yeah I wouldn't do it either. I think having grains in there at only 150F would run a slight risk of infection.

Also, why would you want to "avoid bringing what the steeping grains add to the wort to a boil temp"? This is how all beer is made, so bringing what the grains add to a boil is going to give you the correct flavor.

As far as saving time, you could just add the grains to the cold water at the beginning, heat the water with the steeping grains in it, and then take them out when it gets to about 170F or so.

 

[Yooper]

As far as saving time, you could just add the grains to the cold water at the beginning, heat the water with the steeping grains in it, and then take them out when it gets to about 170F or so.

That's what I would do- put the grains in the cold water, and leave them in there until the temp is about 170, them pull them. No extra time at all, and no chance of infection or astringency.

I guess it wouldn't really matter, but I'm trying to think "What's the advantage?" of doing it after the boil. I can't think of even one- but I can think of several disadvantages and risks, so I wouldn't do what you're proposing. Whenever I want to do something new (and I do, I just don't do things the old way all the time just because they've been done that way), I always think about what the advantage or benefit would be.

Since adding the grains after the hops steep has no possible advantage, would make it harder to strain out, mean that no base grains could ever be used (due to unconverted starch), the boil pH would be higher and then the steeping pH would be lower, etc, I can't see why this would be any benefit. If you can see an advantage, then of course it could be attempted.

 

[BucksIPA]

Some things I was think and clarifying.

My brews have been darker than I want, and am thinking the longer boil time and extract addition is causing my darker shades. I dont add hops at 60min anyways, so I see it as uneeded. Also my preference is decent bitterness, but not overly bitter to be bitter. I was just looking at the process and thinking, why boil all of that for 30 minutes of nothing I was also thinking the grain taste would be different from what the grain taste is after a 60 min boil.

I wouldn't be adding the steeping grains after the hopstand, but more at the same time. Reading that alphas still isomerize down to 175 degrees, I like to add at around that temp, let drop to 150 anyways, and keep it there for a while. I then chill the wort rapidly down to fermentation temp. I get a nice clean break, maybe better if I start it at a higher temp like 180, but I like to hopstand at a lower temp.

So my thought in advantages
color-dont really know if it will
taste- dont really know if the taste will be better
time- my process of hopstand will match the steeping grains pretty closely and can occure at the same time

I also am not sure about this. I do steep in a bag and take out before boil so it is gone. Will the steeped out grain that has gone into the boil release any kind of tannins at the boil temp, if so not on any level, if not at all because grains are gone.

disadvantages
infection-not sure if the 150-160 for 30 minutes will kill it off like resources say it will.


My process as now
heat to 150-155 steeping grains for 30 minutes
Bring to boil, 60 min, add extract at beginning
Hop schedule from 30-0 min
other additions in that time such as irish moss
Cool to 180 and add hops, let cool to 150, crash cool

New process
bring to boil
add extract and start hop schedule for 30 min boil
cool to 180 and add hops let cool to 155, add steeping grain, keep there for 30 min.
crash cool.

 

[peterj]

Are you doing a partial boil and then topping up with water? The darker color you're getting is probably from boiling all of the extract for 60 minutes. You can just add a little extract at the beginning of the boil, then add the rest at flameout to help with this. Also, when using extract, a 30 minute boil is not a problem. If you're only doing a 30 minute addition for your hops then that's completely fine.

I'm not sure what you mean about grain going into the boil and releasing tannins? You should be removing all of the grain prior to the boil. If any small bits get through the bag, it's not really a big deal because that small amount won't make much of a difference.

Also, by steeping after the boil you might get some proteins from the steeping grains carrying over into the beer that should have been precipitated out in the hot break.

You would save the same amount of time by just steeping the grains as the water warms up. Steeping does not have to be at an exact temperature for an exact amount of time like mashing. All you're doing is extracting flavor and color which is not temperature and time dependent like converting a mash is.

 

[BucksIPA]

Yea, i was thinking the color was primarily due to the extract. I do a full boil. I think Im going to try it, unless someone can talk me out of it with things that would be catastrophic.

I do take out the steeping grains before boil. In my head, it is just all of that extras in the kettle during a boil that can effect the beer one way or another.

 

[Beernik]

Just keep it hot enough, long enough that you don't get a lacto (or some other) infection from the grain.

There is also a DMS risk depending on which grains you use and and how much you use.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Am I getting the question right, your beer tastes fine, you just want a lighter color? If that's the case here's what I do. This is all assuming it's a 5-gal batch. Use only 1 gallon of water for primary boil (Less volume of color to dilute). Second. With the exception of about a half a cup of extract in your primary boil for hop utilization, boil the remaining extract in a separate pot (very low boil) for only 10 minutes in another gallon of water. Any longer and it will start to darken which defeats the purpose. Pour them both in an ice-water filled fermentation bucket and top off with water until desired volume is achieved.

Try not to shorten your boil. It needs to boil for an hour because science.

This is how I make extract white IPAs white, not brown.

 

[peterj]

Am I getting the question right, your beer tastes fine, you just want a lighter color? If that's the case here's what I do. This is all assuming it's a 5-gal batch. Use only 1 gallon of water for primary boil (Less volume of color to dilute). Second. With the exception of about a half a cup of extract in your primary boil for hop utilization, boil the remaining extract in a separate pot (very low boil) for only 10 minutes in another gallon of water. Any longer and it will start to darken which defeats the purpose. Pour them both in an ice-water filled fermentation bucket and top off with water until desired volume is achieved.

Try not to shorten your boil. It needs to boil for an hour because science.

This is how I make extract white IPAs white, not brown.

If you want more than 15-20 IBUs in your beer then you can't boil all of your hops in 1 gallon of wort. Wort has a maximum solubility of about 80-100 IBUs so that 1 gallon can only physically have 80-100 IBUs in it. When you dilute it 1 to 5 with water (which has 0 IBUs) you're reducing the IBUs to around a maximum of 15-20.

Doing a full boil but adding the bulk of the extract at flame out is a much better way to avoid darkening of the wort from boiling extract. Plus you won't have any IBU limitations.