Starting a house culture

[toddo97]

I'm thinking about starting a house culture of different strains of lacto with some bottle dregs and then another one with different strains of brett. For those who have done this, how have your results been? I'm planning on using a 64oz growler for each batch. I'm assuming I'll start with 1L of wort in a flask and build a starter with whatever I have and then dump that into a growler. After that, do you decant off the wort every couple of months or so and add fresh wort? If I want to add some bottle dregs to the batch, do you make a small starter (500mL?) to give it some buildup before adding it?

 

[BrewInspector]

I'm sure someone with more knowledge will respond soon but my understanding is that generally one strain will eventually out complete the other strains ultimately leaving you with only one variety rather than a mix or unique species.

 

[jfolks]

Brewinspector’s commonly argued point is too pessimistic. You certainly can have a house mixed culture, although there will be drift. If you have 100 strains in there, it would take MANY generations to dwindle down to 1.

Really any method you’ve mentioned is fine. Once you have your house culture going, you can just toss dregs into it, or build them up first and add the slurry

 

[BrewInspector]

Brewinspector’s commonly argued point is too pessimistic. You certainly can have a house mixed culture, although there will be drift. If you have 100 strains in there, it would take MANY generations to dwindle down to 1.

Really any method you’ve mentioned is fine. Once you have your house culture going, you can just toss dregs into it, or build them up first and add the slurry

I'll agree with that. You will certainly have something unique at least for a while that changes over time as some strains dominate over others.

It will be difficult to maintain consistency of flavor using this method but it can be accomplished with some forethought on maintaining the original mix

 

[RPh_Guy]

I keep dregs in 8oz mason jars. One beer per jar, that way I don't lose strains over time.

At some point I'll probably switch to storing in saline.

How do you plan to separate Lacto from Brett or Pedio?

Let's see if photo uploads work

 

[FunkedOut]

i don't know what i'm talking about but alcohol is a great thing so here goes...

if you have a yeast blend, and you try to propagate it, it dwindles down to one isolated strain.
if you have an isolated yeast strain, and you try to propagate it, it mutates and turns into a blend.

bottom line, if you live in the 21st century, have access to sanitizers, sterilizers, glass and stainless steel, anything you try to make good beer results in disaster.
if you are a caveman and chew roots, spit into a wooden bowl, mix with your hands after wiping your ass, and leave fermentation up to chance, you will succeed.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say beneath the sarcasm. ???

If I keep paint in separate jars they'll each stay that color (if I avoid contamination) and I can use them on their own or blend to make new colors. If I mix them all together I'll get brown.

Competition, mutation, and drift do also occur, so my analogy doesn't paint the whole picture.

 

[FunkedOut]

Nothing sir. Just a drunk rambling intended to add levity.

As you were.

 

[toddo97]

I keep dregs in 8oz mason jars. One beer per jar, that way I don't lose strains over time.

At some point I'll probably switch to storing in saline.

How do you plan to separate Lacto from Brett or Pedio?

Let's see if photo uploads work
View attachment 583940

That's something I had not thought about--dregs will bring more than just the one type of bacteria (usually). For lacto I was thinking about adding a Goodbelly shot, some probiotics, half of a vial of l brevis and any other strains I come across. For Brett, I was going to start with a pack of All the Bretts that I just ordered. I have not thought about Pedio yet. I think I may take your method and start a new small starter for each bottle dreg. Maybe add 500ml for a starter for it? When you're going to use it in a batch, do you take half of it or so and build up a new starter? Thinking about it, I really like the idea of keeping the bacteria isolated and just mixing it with dregs when i pitch bugs. How often do you dump/add fresh wort?

 

[toddo97]

i don't know what i'm talking about but alcohol is a great thing so here goes...

if you have a yeast blend, and you try to propagate it, it dwindles down to one isolated strain.
if you have an isolated yeast strain, and you try to propagate it, it mutates and turns into a blend.

bottom line, if you live in the 21st century, have access to sanitizers, sterilizers, glass and stainless steel, anything you try to make good beer results in disaster.
if you are a caveman and chew roots, spit into a wooden bowl, mix with your hands after wiping your ass, and leave fermentation up to chance, you will succeed.

I've had beer that tastes like it was mixed with ass-wiped hands, but I think I'll leave that to the professionals

 

[RPh_Guy]

Why try to maintain a Lacto culture?
If you just want Lacto around for a rainy day, leave a bottle of Swanson's L. plantarum in the fridge. Easy peasy.

I've thought a lot about maintaining a Lacto culture with the goal of increasing hop tolerance. I think the best way is to propagate Lacto in skim milk (or a buffered lactose+nutrient starter) to avoid yeast contamination, but not really with dregs because some Brett strains do metabolize lactose (I'm not quite sure if those Brett strains would survive and/or ferment the milk... but I'd rather not find out). Unless you add hops (when you pasteurize the milk) your cultured Lacto won't be very hop-tolerant because they lose hop tolerance when propagated in un-hopped media. Using dregs as a source of Lacto without plating and isolating from Brett doesn't really seem worthwhile in my opinion. There's probably not much Lacto in there anyway since Pedio does the bulk of souring in traditional mixed fermentations.
So in summary: pasteurize skim milk with tiny amount of hops, cool, and then add pure Lacto culture(s). Incubate for 12-72 hours in a warm spot and then refrigerate. Keep that going by adding pasteurized milk with hops every few months.
It's a good idea to make a buffered starter when you use it, but you don't need one.
Increase the hops over time if you want to increase hop tolerance.
Bonus if you like hopped yogurt, because that's what this is. Pour off the whey and eat it if you want.

If you want a particular acid tolerance or Lacto flavor... Make multiple cultures and see where they fall. Might want to plate it or you'll get drift and/or contamination over time.

----
I like variety, so I just don't see a reason to mix all my Brett strains together. If I have a dry Brett beer and 4 additional Brett cultures, I can create up to 16 unique beers at bottling(!!!).

FYI it's not recommended to use dregs for primary fermentation unless you're sure there's not a killer bottling strain in there. Another reason I don't really care to mix my cultures all together.

I add about 100-150mL of starter wort with nutrient to the sanitized 8oz jar before adding bottle dregs.
My starters sit at room temp because I don't want to fill my fridge with jars. Lids are loose so they don't need airlocks. Every 3 months stir it up, remove about 90% of the slurry, and replace with fresh wort. Add hops if you want to maintain hop tolerance of any LAB in the culture.
Cell count doesn't matter when pitching as secondary, so just stir it and add some to your batch.

 

[radwizard]

Here is an example of what I do to with my microbes:

I recently blended 3 different carboys of sour beer.
Beers were:
1)Lambic base fermented with ECY Bug County
2)Golden with Blackman B4 + Funk weapon #1
3) Red with Roselare + Cascade dregs

I harvested these dregs from the carboys after I finished racking. I combined 500 ml of each of the dregs and pitched them into a fresh wort along with some Belgian Yeast. I also saved the dregs separately and maintain them.

That is basically what I do for a house culture. I try and mix things that were good for blending, and just keep going with it.

I have also established cultures from bottle dregs, building them up and eventually combining the successful cultures. I have a bunch of 1 gallon jugs that they eventually go into. I keep everything separate at first, but eventually they get combined and pitched into a 5 gallon fermentation.

 

[toddo97]

Why try to maintain a Lacto culture?
If you just want Lacto around for a rainy day, leave a bottle of Swanson's L. plantarum in the fridge. Easy peasy.

I've thought a lot about maintaining a Lacto culture with the goal of increasing hop tolerance. I think the best way is to propagate Lacto in skim milk (or a buffered lactose+nutrient starter) to avoid yeast contamination, but not really with dregs because some Brett strains do metabolize lactose (I'm not quite sure if those Brett strains would survive and/or ferment the milk... but I'd rather not find out). Unless you add hops (when you pasteurize the milk) your cultured Lacto won't be very hop-tolerant because they lose hop tolerance when propagated in un-hopped media. Using dregs as a source of Lacto without plating and isolating from Brett doesn't really seem worthwhile in my opinion. There's probably not much Lacto in there anyway since Pedio does the bulk of souring in traditional mixed fermentations.
So in summary: pasteurize skim milk with tiny amount of hops, cool, and then add pure Lacto culture(s). Incubate for 12-72 hours in a warm spot and then refrigerate. Keep that going by adding pasteurized milk with hops every few months.
It's a good idea to make a buffered starter when you use it, but you don't need one.
Increase the hops over time if you want to increase hop tolerance.
Bonus if you like hopped yogurt, because that's what this is. Pour off the whey and eat it if you want.

If you want a particular acid tolerance or Lacto flavor... Make multiple cultures and see where they fall. Might want to plate it or you'll get drift and/or contamination over time.

----
I like variety, so I just don't see a reason to mix all my Brett strains together. If I have a dry Brett beer and 4 additional Brett cultures, I can create up to 16 unique beers at bottling(!!!).

FYI it's not recommended to use dregs for primary fermentation unless you're sure there's not a killer bottling strain in there. Another reason I don't really care to mix my cultures all together.

I add about 100-150mL of starter wort with nutrient to the sanitized 8oz jar before adding bottle dregs.
My starters sit at room temp because I don't want to fill my fridge with jars. Lids are loose so they don't need airlocks. Every 3 months stir it up, remove about 90% of the slurry, and replace with fresh wort. Add hops if you want to maintain hop tolerance of any LAB in the culture.
Cell count doesn't matter when pitching as secondary, so just stir it and add some to your batch.

I'd like to make a mixed lacto blend to have some variety and not be stuck with just one strain. It probably won't make a difference taste-wise, but you never know. It would give me more flexibility with temps as well. It would also save me a bit of money because my current souring process is to use some GoodBelly with some Swanson's pills. I also like to add some L Brevis if I have some around.

That's a good idea about the different Brett cultures. I think I'm going to build up the All the Bretts batch once I get it and then start building up separate strains as well.

As far as dregs, do you think if I stick with Dr Ferm's list of dregs will let me use them in primary souring? Anything off the list I could stick with secondary.

Are you worried about the amount of headspace you have in your sample jars? Have you had any problems with excess acetic acid production?

 

[toddo97]

Here is an example of what I do to with my microbes:

I recently blended 3 different carboys of sour beer.
Beers were:
1)Lambic base fermented with ECY Bug County
2)Golden with Blackman B4 + Funk weapon #1
3) Red with Roselare + Cascade dregs

I harvested these dregs from the carboys after I finished racking. I combined 500 ml of each of the dregs and pitched them into a fresh wort along with some Belgian Yeast. I also saved the dregs separately and maintain them.

That is basically what I do for a house culture. I try and mix things that were good for blending, and just keep going with it.

I have also established cultures from bottle dregs, building them up and eventually combining the successful cultures. I have a bunch of 1 gallon jugs that they eventually go into. I keep everything separate at first, but eventually they get combined and pitched into a 5 gallon fermentation.

How often do you decant off the old wort from your cultures and add fresh wort? When you combine them into a supercombo, do you dump the whole thing or just half and build it back up for later?

 

[specharka]

I usually keep one house sour culture that is under constant rotation. When I brew a sour beer, I’ll use up to half of the sour culture, replenishing with fresh (hopped) wort. So it’s a solera of sorts — sometimes I add new dregs from sour bottles that I enjoy; sometimes I recycle my own bottle dregs. I figure there’s enough Brett, Pedio and LAB strains present to produce a substantial level of acidity in a reasonable amount of time (12-18 months). I’ve noticed the level of acidity is much higher than pitching Roeselare or a similar commercial blend.

Additionally, I maintain a separate farmhouse ale culture with no pedio for “quick” wild ales — a couple of saison strains, Brett, and LAB. That’s enough to produce a complex, slightly tart farmhouse ale within 1-3 months. I’m more comfortable treating this culture like a single strain, decanting the starter beer, and fermenting the starter for a longer period of time to encourage Brett and LAB growth.

 

[RPh_Guy]

do you think if I stick with Dr Ferm's list of dregs will let me use them in primary souring?

Mike Tonsmeire's list (that he no longer maintains)? Anything on the list might contain a killer bottling strain.

I'd stick to pitching any culture with dregs as a secondary fermentation.

Are you worried about the amount of headspace you have in your sample jars? Have you had any problems with excess acetic acid production?

No problems so far. Doesn't matter if there's acetic production in a couple ounces of starter.

@radwizard and @specharka have a more traditional approach to culture maintenance (more like a true "house culture"). Pick any method that works for you and your goals.

@specharka ,
If you're turning around complex sours in 1-3 months I'd love some tips (especially which strains are good for this) on my thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/mixed-fermentation-in-less-than-3-months.652475/

Cheers

 

[radwizard]

How often do you decant off the old wort from your cultures and add fresh wort? When you combine them into a supercombo, do you dump the whole thing or just half and build it back up for later?

My thoughts are that I have a successful fermentation, I need to keep those bugs around. If I have a blend that works, there isn't a reason why those microbes shouldn't be together in the next beer. Eventually things just keep getting mixed and there isn't really a specific blend really to be accounted for. I measure the amount of cake that I am going to re pitch, and I try to get the next beer brewed shortly after the cake is available. Somewhere I read 1000ml of the old cake is a good amount to pitch - I usually do like 1000-1500. I just dump them in the next beer with Sacch. It is simple, but has always worked well for me.

If I am going to save a carboy dregs for longer, I just put them in a 1000 ml flask with around 1.04 wort and put an airlock on there. I don't really have a time that I would decant them. I would feel comfortable leaving them there for like 6 months though. I'm not really trying to grow anything up at this point, just keep them hanging around. I can pour a little out of these mini-beers and taste them whenever I please, and just throw it all away if I don't like it, so no stress here.

I do like to play around with bottle dregs as well. But that is kind of a different deal, as I am trying to grow them up, and need to be careful with my selection (killer yeasts).

It totally depends on your end goal. For example, RPh Guy is working on less then 3 month fermentations - meaning he needs to find organisms that behave a certain way in a short time. My procedure won't really work very well for his goals.

Hopefully some of that makes some sense. I'm no micro-biologist, but I've had pretty good success researching and taking a lazy, long term approach.

 

[specharka]

@specharka ,
If you're turning around complex sours in 1-3 months I'd love some tips (especially which strains are good for this) on my thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/mixed-fermentation-in-less-than-3-months.652475/

Cheers

I would never consider them to be complex sours. They develop a bit of acidity, especially during bottle conditioning, and ferment just off bone dry within 6 weeks (FG 1.004-1.006). If I have any advice, it’s to use a single culture/blend from your favorite sour beer and keep it actively fermenting until you’re ready to pitch it. Use a simple grainbill, mash low (145-148), and co-pitch everything at once.

I’ve had enormous success building starters from Hill Farmstead dregs, and I’ve read that Jester King dregs are extremely versatile as well. Young, low-ABV farmhouse ales are usually far more viable resources than imported lambic and Oude Gueuze.

 

[toddo97]

Mike Tonsmeire's list (that he no longer maintains)? Anything on the list might contain a killer bottling strain.

I'd stick to pitching any culture with dregs as a secondary fermentation.


No problems so far. Doesn't matter if there's acetic production in a couple ounces of starter.

@radwizard and @specharka have a more traditional approach to culture maintenance (more like a true "house culture"). Pick any method that works for you and your goals.

@specharka ,
If you're turning around complex sours in 1-3 months I'd love some tips (especially which strains are good for this) on my thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/mixed-fermentation-in-less-than-3-months.652475/

Cheers

Thanks--I'll stick to dregs in secondary. I would always toss in one or two in primary to add some complexity, but I could be doing more hard than good I suppose.

 

[toddo97]

My thoughts are that I have a successful fermentation, I need to keep those bugs around. If I have a blend that works, there isn't a reason why those microbes shouldn't be together in the next beer. Eventually things just keep getting mixed and there isn't really a specific blend really to be accounted for. I measure the amount of cake that I am going to re pitch, and I try to get the next beer brewed shortly after the cake is available. Somewhere I read 1000ml of the old cake is a good amount to pitch - I usually do like 1000-1500. I just dump them in the next beer with Sacch. It is simple, but has always worked well for me.

If I am going to save a carboy dregs for longer, I just put them in a 1000 ml flask with around 1.04 wort and put an airlock on there. I don't really have a time that I would decant them. I would feel comfortable leaving them there for like 6 months though. I'm not really trying to grow anything up at this point, just keep them hanging around. I can pour a little out of these mini-beers and taste them whenever I please, and just throw it all away if I don't like it, so no stress here.

I do like to play around with bottle dregs as well. But that is kind of a different deal, as I am trying to grow them up, and need to be careful with my selection (killer yeasts).

It totally depends on your end goal. For example, RPh Guy is working on less then 3 month fermentations - meaning he needs to find organisms that behave a certain way in a short time. My procedure won't really work very well for his goals.

Hopefully some of that makes some sense. I'm no micro-biologist, but I've had pretty good success researching and taking a lazy, long term approach.

Thanks! I guess I'm looking for both short-term and long term souring. I just wanted to make sure that anything I put in a flask wouldn't die off if I didn't feed it often enough.

 

[Home_alone1]

Havnt quite done this but have 2 Brett strains in my Saison, a purchased strain and Orval , I have 2 bottles of cantillon and 2 bottles of jester king waiting to be used . It’s going to be super funky once I combine it all ! I probably need to add some lacto planterum to the mix as well.

 

[pursuit0fhoppiness]

RPh Guy, I tried to quote your post #5 but not sure if it worked. Anyway, I'm new to brewing mixed-fermentation sours (3rd batch is fermenting now), and am wondering about collecting bottle dregs as you've shown in your mason jars. This is probably a dumb question but do you just have a jar per beer, and continually add dregs from whichever beer to its corresponding jar? No washing or anything, those jars in your picture just contain the dregs and a bit of beer?
Thanks!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Each of my jars contains dregs from one beer or one commercial culture, added to starter wort.

I use DME ~1.040 unhopped wort (usually not buffered, depends how lazy I'm feeling), and feed every 3 months after decanting about 90% of the slurry. (MTF recommends this.)
I will also save and repitch cakes. .. One without pedio for faster turnaround mixed sours (exactly like specharka).

It's fairly uncommon for me to find bottles of mixed sours, and then half of them are pasteurized or filtered so the dregs are useless. Even when they aren't, sometimes nothing grows anyway. Plus they're around $10-20 per bottle... AND I usually like to try a variety of beers rather than get the same thing again. Untappd uniques: 1784.
....So no, I haven't been adding the same dregs to my jars, because I don't have them. If I did, I would.

"Washing" is pointless (in my opinion, and many others) and just introduces more possibility for contamination.

Hope that helps!