Starter with dry yeast

[boydster]

No. I don't know which experiment you saw, but most studies I have seen show that a lower gravity starter is better for the yeast.

 

[Terek]

No. I don't know which experiment you saw, but most studies I have seen show that a lower gravity starter is better for the yeast.

Every thing I have read says this. I usually shoot for a 1.04, or 2 cups water to 1/2 cup DME comes close, for a 1 liter starter. In a high gravity beer, I usually do a 2 liter starter, to pitch more yeast. Here is a link to a great calculator for determining how big a starter for certain OGs
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

 

[flars]

I have just received this response from Fermentis to my question about making a starter with dry yeast.

"Once you have rehydrated the dry yeast (see rehydration tab in the "tips and tricks" section on www.brewwithfermentis.com), the yeast is in the same condition as any other yeast in liquid. If you do not rehydrate before you start agitating, you can end up decreasing viability due to the cell membranes of the yeast cells being in a fragile state. If you rehydrate the yeast appropriately, you can propagate the same as you would any other yeast."

The Brewers Friend yeast starter calculator does have a Dry Yeast tab.

 

[cjgenever]

Thanks for that. I think that supports what common sense would lead us to suspect. I also feel that it is worth mentioning that we probably can't build up our yeast as well as fermentis. With the cost of dme I suspect that it is in fact better to rehydrate and pitch. I have always sided with this conclusion. I also believe that it is in no way detrimental to make a starter with dry yeast if the situation requires it. This response from Fermentis further supports my hypothesis.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[cjgenever]

Fwiw

Brewers friend is a good free app. But it can be VERY misleading. If you input a value that does not fall into the range of the app it will return an incorrect value. I NEVER use it for starter purposes. It has proven unreliable. I use it for a lot of stuff, but I leave the starter calcs up to Mr malty and ibu's up to tinsiths' online calc.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[myelo]

Flars, thanks for the update.

 

[edred]

Hi, my first post, I'm a novice & am slowly absorbing all this great info... & still making mistakes!

One annoying thing: I heard about yeast starters somewhere so I looked at about a dozen youtube videos for beginners on how to do it. Not one of them said not to do a starter with dry yeast. Not one! Geez.

Well, I thought I was being clever & did one, it's sitting there waiting to be pitched tomorrow. No big deal, just a gripe - you live & learn; no more youtube for me.

 

[dyqik]

There's no real problem with doing a starter with dried yeast, just not much of a reason why one would be necessary. It's not exactly a mistake.

 

[kombat]

There's no real problem with doing a starter with dried yeast, just not much of a reason why one would be necessary. It's not exactly a mistake.

According to research documented in the book "Yeast" (White/Zainasheff), making a starter with dry yeast depletes it of the reserves that were built into it to enable it to attack a full batch directly, such that when you finally pitch the starter into the wort, the yeast is largely already spent. They concluded that it is, in fact, a "mistake" to make a starter with dry yeast, and results in lower quality beer.

 

[kh54s10]

Hi, my first post, I'm a novice & am slowly absorbing all this great info... & still making mistakes!

One annoying thing: I heard about yeast starters somewhere so I looked at about a dozen youtube videos for beginners on how to do it. Not one of them said not to do a starter with dry yeast. Not one! Geez.

Well, I thought I was being clever & did one, it's sitting there waiting to be pitched tomorrow. No big deal, just a gripe - you live & learn; no more youtube for me.

I would say that most don't mention not using dry yeast through omission. They make the assumption that you will be using liquid yeast.

There's no real problem with doing a starter with dried yeast, just not much of a reason why one would be necessary. It's not exactly a mistake.

IMO it will take a slightly larger starter to achieve the same health and cell count as liquid when making a starter from dry yeast. Due to the depletion of the engineered reserves/nutrients.

As often stated in this thread, you can get there, and if circumstances warrant it, (not having more dry yeast available) it is a good option. But, in most cases it is cheaper, easier and better, to just use more dry yeast. (re-hydrated)

To cjgenever:

I no longer have to agree to disagree with you. With the added information, the starter you made was not a bad thing. Maybe unnecessary, depending on circumstances, but not bad.

 

[dyqik]

According to research documented in the book "Yeast" (White/Zainasheff), making a starter with dry yeast depletes it of the reserves that were built into it to enable it to attack a full batch directly, such that when you finally pitch the starter into the wort, the yeast is largely already spent. They concluded that it is, in fact, a "mistake" to make a starter with dry yeast, and results in lower quality beer.

See, this just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Starter wort contains the nutrients required to build up more yeast, or it wouldn't work for propagating liquid yeast, yeast slants or harvested yeast. A starter made from dried yeast isn't going to be significantly less viable than a starter made from liquid yeast.

I can't find where in "Yeast" it says what you've written. The only thing it says related to starters from dried yeast is the somewhat vague statement that "Many experts suggest that placing dry yeast in a starter just depletes the cell reserves that the manufacturer tries to build into their product." (p133). This isn't quantified beyond that, and there's no discussion of research that shows this, or mention of the resultant quality the beer.

I think it's hardly a disaster if you do make a starter with dried yeast. Obviously you don't need to, and you might not be getting everything you could possibly get from a properly rehydrated pack of yeast, and you are almost certainly wasting money, but it's still active viable yeast at the end.

Reading through this thread, I see you've already been told this several times.