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LKHA

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Why not do a starter for dry yeast to make sure the yeast have a good start. If you do not have to why spend the big bucks on liquid yeast?
 

zman

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You only need to spend the big bucks on liquid yeast if (a) you want to or (b) you are brewing a style where the yeast is going to have a lot of say in the flavor profile, ie Belgians. You make a starter to increase cell count so there are enough to go through fermentation. Typically dry yeast has a much higher cell count so a starter is not needed. However, re hydrating dry yeast can be very helpful in kick starting fernemtation
 

TipsyDragon

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you don't get nearly as much selection from dry yeast. personally i'm more in mind to add more packets of yeast than actually making a starter.

with dry yeast you have to make a starter. dry yeast packets have typically 40 to 70 billion cells which is very inadequate for a typical batch of beer.

liquid yeast has between 70 and 125 billion cells per vial which is better but sill needs a starter for a good fermentation. although not as big of one.
 

Yooper

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Actually, just the opposite is true. From Danstar's website re: Nottingham dry yeast: For Nottingham yeast the average cell count under the microscope is around 20 to 30 billion cells per gram dry yeast. (more info at http://www.danstaryeast.com/library/cell_count_starter.html)

Since it comes in an 11 gram package, you're looking at plenty of yeast for an average 5 gallon batch!

From Wyeast's website: The Activator™ has a minimum of 100 billion cells of pure, ready-to-pitch yeast, plus an internal nutrient packet. An Activator contains approximately 100 billion cells which will deliver slightly less than 6 million cells per milliliter to a 5 gallon batch of beer

From White Labs: White Labs Pitchable Yeast
Each vial of White Labs liquid yeast is designed to be used directly in 5 gallons, hence the term "pitchable yeast." Each vial is equivalent in cell count to a pint starter, or 75-150 billion cells.

So, as you can see, you'll have FAR less cells in one package of liquid yeast as you do in the typical dry yeast packages.
 

sudbuster

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Why not do a starter for dry yeast to make sure the yeast have a good start. If you do not have to why spend the big bucks on liquid yeast?
All that has been said above is true I'm sure, the only problem is, not many yeast varieties allow themselves to be freeze dried and still be alive afterward. The brewing scene is loaded with yeast varieties that can only be aquired in liquid form. Also, according to Noonan, dry yeasts are loaded with contaminants (New Brewing Lager Beer; p 167).
 

smizak

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I'll second Yoop on that one.

An 11.5g yeast packet has more than twice as many cells as a Wyeast pack/White Labs tube. The dry yeast has sterol reserves already built into it, so there is no need for a starter. The primary reason for a starter is healthy yeast and just slightly secondarily a higher cell count of yeast. Properly rehydrated and not excessively old, a dry yeast pack has both.
 

smizak

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Also, according to Noonan, dry yeasts are loaded with contaminants (New Brewing Lager Beer; p 167).
It should also be noted that the technology for producing dry yeast is recently greatly improved.
 
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Why not do a starter for dry yeast to make sure the yeast have a good start. If you do not have to why spend the big bucks on liquid yeast?
A starter has two purposes: grow more yeast, and prove viability of the yeast.

For dry yeast, the latter endeavor is still necessary: proofing the yeast. Dry yeast should be rehydrated in order to "proof" it, or to prove viability. Your grandmother did this when she made bread, and we still do it today when we make "liquid bread"!
 

gallagherman

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I'm a dry yeast convert! Whenever I would use a clean American yeast, like WLP001, I have been using dry yeast like US-05. When I need a british ale i use S-04. 1 packet is the perfect pitching rate for a 5 gallon batch that is about 1.050. I usually see airlock activity within 6-12 hours after pitching. Whenever I need a different strain I'll make an appropriate starter. I'd have to say two major things have taken my homebrewing from 'drinkable' to 'delicious'; Proper pitching rates and fermentation temperature control. Dry yeasts are great!:fro:
 

chefmike

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For dry yeast, the latter endeavor is still necessary: proofing the yeast. Dry yeast should be rehydrated in order to "proof" it, or to prove viability. Your grandmother did this when she made bread, and we still do it today when we make "liquid bread"!


And much the same as dry yeast has changed since grandma made her bread, so has dry yeast for brewing.

Modern bread yeasts do not need to be proofed as they are packaged with nutirents and designed to be mixed in with the dry ingredients.

Brewing yeasts have changed as well. I would recommend reading the manufacturers directions and following them.

Unless you are merely calling rehydration proofing.. These are two different ideas. Proofing a yeast involves mixing with sugar and waiting until a foam rises, indicating fermentive process by the yeast, which is not required with modern, well handled yeast.

Hydration can be used, and is often recommended. Amazingly, the interwebz provides manufacturer information for every strain we use!:ban:


and it all tends to make beer!:fro:
 

JonK331

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I agree with gallagerman. The new dry yeasts are great! Especially US-04 and 05. They have huge cell counts compared to liquid and tolerate a wide range of temperatures. The Fermentis site claims that both 04 and 05 can ferment anywhere from 59-75 degrees f. I like to pitch a lot of yeast so I make a slurry from two packets and pitch. Fermentation starts VERY quickly. Two packets of dry is still less expesive than one vial of liquid and many, many more cells. My beer has improved greatly from using dry yeast. Sure there are more liquid yeast strains out there but making a starter is a real pain that can be avoided. Not to mention the fact that a huge starter can drastically change gravity. Just use the liquid for the specialty beers.
 

wrestler63

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I am still a noob. ( 30 batches all grain ) But I used both Dry, hydrated yeast and smack packs in a starter as well as vials in starter. Being new to this, I have stuck mostly to my favorite beers, IPA's. That being said, all my beers have finished nicely with all types of yeast and I dont make an IPA under 1.075. Notty, S-04 and S-05 have been great dry yeast strains for me. I feel no need to go to liquid strains as of yet until I start some specialy beers.
I have upgraded my equipment in order to make 10 gallon batches and split my batch into (2) carbouys for fermenting. Using this process will alow me to now pitch 2 different strains of yeast per batch and see for myself any noticable differences. This I feel, is the only way to make my own decisions on liquid versus dry. I get so much different feedback that a true test situation is needed for me.
Cheers....:mug:
 
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For dry yeast, the latter endeavor is still necessary: proofing the yeast. Dry yeast should be rehydrated in order to "proof" it, or to prove viability.
Not true. Rehydration is not proofing, and proofing is not entirely necessary. Rehydration should be done in clean, ordinary tap water in order to maximize the viability of dry yeast. It has to do with osmotic pressure and cell membrane integrity.

Danstar Website said:
Dry beer yeast needs to be reconstituted in a gentle way. During rehydration the cell membrane undergoes changes which can be lethal to yeast. In order to reconstitute the yeast as gently as possible (and minimize/avoid any damage) yeast producers developed specific rehydration procedures. Although most dry beer yeast will work if pitched directly into wort, it is recommended to follow the rehydration instructions to insure the optimum performance of the yeast.
Danstar Website said:
We do not recommend to use distilled or reverse-osmosis water because the yeast would be damaged by osmotic pressure. Tap water contains minerals which lower the osmotic pressure on the yeast. You could rehydrate the yeast in a 0.9 % saline solution.
Dr. Clayton Cone said:
Let me give you some facts regarding rehydration and you can decide for yourself where you want to compromise. Every strain of yeast has its own optimum rehydration temperature. All of them range between 95 F to 105F. Most of them closer to 105F. The dried yeast cell wall is fragile and it is the first few minutes (possibly seconds) of rehydration that the warm temperature is critical while it is reconstituting its cell wall structure.

As you drop the initial temperature of the water from 95 to 85 or 75 or 65F the yeast leached out more and more of its insides damaging the each cell. The yeast viability also drops proportionally. At 95 - 105 F, there is 100% recovery of the viable dry yeast. At 60F, there can be as much as 60% dead cells.

The water should be tap water with the normal amount of hardness present. The hardness is essential for good recovery. 250 -500 ppm hardness is ideal. This means that deionized or distilled water should not be used. Ideally, the warm rehydration water should contain about 0.5 - 1.0% yeast extract.

For the initial few minutes (perhaps seconds) of rehydration, the yeast cell wall cannot differentiate what passes through the wall. Toxic materials like sprays, hops, SO2 and sugars in high levels, that the yeast normally can selectively keep from passing through its cell wall rush right in and seriously damage the cells. The moment that the cell wall is properly reconstituted, the yeast can then regulate what goes in and out of the cell. That is why we hesitate to recommend rehydration in wort or must. Very dilute wort seems to be OK.

We recommend that the rehydrated yeast be added to the wort within 30 minutes. We have built into each cell a large amount of glycogen and trehalose that give the yeast a burst of energy to kick off the growth cycle when it is in the wort. It is quickly used up if the yeast is rehydrated for more than 30 minutes. There is no damage done here if it is not immediately add to the wort. You just do not get the added benefit of that sudden burst of energy. We also recommend that you attemperate the rehydrated yeast to with in 15F of the wort before adding to the wort. Warm yeast into a cold wort will cause many of the yeast to produce petite mutants that will never grow or ferment properly and will cause them to produce H2S. The attemperation can take place over a very brief period by adding, in encrements, a small amount of the cooler wort to the rehydrated yeast.

Many times we find that warm water is added to a very cold container that drops the rehydrating water below the desired temperature.

Sometimes refrigerated, very cold, dry yeast is added directly to the warm water with out giving it time to come to room temperature. The initial water intering the cell is then cool.

How do many beer and wine makers have successful fermentations when they ignore all the above? I believe that it is just a numbers game. Each gram of Active Dry Yeast contains about 20 billion live yeast cells. If you slightly damage the cells, they have a remarkable ability to recover in the rich wort. If you kill 60% of the cell you still have 8 billion cells per gram that can go on to do the job at a slower rate.

The manufacturer of Active Dry Beer Yeast would be remiss if they offered rehydration instructions that were less than the very best that their data indicated.

One very important factor that the distributor and beer maker should keep in mind is that Active Dry Yeast is dormant or inactive and not inert, so keep refrigerated at all times. Do not store in a tin roofed warehouse that becomes an oven or on a window sill that gets equally hot.

Active Dry Yeast looses about 20% of its activity in a year when it is stored at 75 F and only 4% when refrigerated.

The above overview of rehydration should tell you that there is a very best way to rehydrate. It should also tell you where you are safe in adapting the rehydration procedure to fit your clients.
 

smizak

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I've always rehydrated my beer yeast so I have no reference, but I for one can tell you that it matters immensely with my Apfelwein batches.

My first two batches I just dumped the yeast in. 36 hr. min lagtime. I now rehydrate in 90F tap water, full ripping fermentation in 18-24 hrs.
 

Yambor44

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I have been using dry yeast (Safale US-05) for about 6 months exclusively. I love the convenience of it. I add one packet per 5 gallon bucket/carboy. I add the yeast in after about a gallon of wort has transferred to the primary. I use the aeration tube (I got from this site) with the hole in it to create oxygen in the wort during transfer. My wort temp is usually 60-65 degrees when I pitch.

My fermentation always seem to take at least 24 hours to start and is never really vigorous (I only use airlocks and never a blow-off tube). However, I always seem to get 80% or better attenuation. My beer's are clean and clear and good tasting. I do stay with the same styles; Amber, Pale and IPA Ales as well as Browns.

I worried about vigorous fermentation and lag time in the past, but it doesn't really matter I guess as long as the end result is there.

I have recently began to stir my yeast in after completing the transfer as my yeast would seem to clump in the cool wort. Still haven't noticed a difference as far as stirring and not stirring.
 
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Not true. Rehydration is not proofing, and proofing is not entirely necessary. Rehydration should be done in clean, ordinary tap water in order to maximize the viability of dry yeast. It has to do with osmotic pressure and cell membrane integrity.
Thanks for the education. That was a lot of great info (in your post above).
 

Revvy

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Also, according to Noonan, dry yeasts are loaded with contaminants (New Brewing Lager Beer; p 167).
It should be noted that even the revised version of the book is six years old...and iirc it was originally published in 1986...so his views on dry yeast was skewed by a bias most folks who brewed prior to the repeal of homebrewing prohibition in 1978, when most yeast available was in dry cake form that travelled from overseas in cargo ships and may have been improperly stored, and handled all the way through to the stores that surreptitiously carried brewing yeast.

Even Danstar makes a comment about the dubious heritage of dry yeast and the modern improvements on their website.

The use of active dried professional yeasts for amateur brewing is a relatively new phenomenon introduced by Lallemand. Now, choose your active dried yeast for brewing with confidence. Ask for Danstar superior quality yeasts at your local retailer.
So most of those notions really are just biased carryovers from the bad old days.
 
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