St Austell recipe for Daylight Robbery (which became Tribute) - from the horse's mouth

[Northern_Brewer]

Roger Ryman has dug up the recipe for Daylight Robbery, the beer that he brewed on the 2.5brl kit at St Austell for the 1999 solar eclipse, that evolved into Tribute with the addition of some Styrians. 2.5brl is 108 US gallons or 409 litres, so multiply by 0.046 to get to 5 US gallons. Hmm - just noticed it's 300l of water, but you don't get 1.044 OG unless you assume eg 409litres with 60% efficiency, which seems implausibly low.

Worth noting the salt additions in particular, and the fermentation schedule which is pretty typically British.

 

[Queequeg]

Lol, RRP £1.85, those were the days

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Those were the "good old days" <s>before minimum wage</s> three weeks after minimum wage had been introduced at £3.60/hr, it'll be £8.21 in a few weeks time. Big change for the biggest cost for pubs.

Roger has just added :
"We used to add a little NaCl in the liquor treatment at Maclay’s before I joined St Austell,and that was something I brought with me although dropped out years ago in favour of a balance of CaCl an CaSO4. MgSO4 also since dropped."

 

[MT2sum]

I found this thread yesterday, and would like to try to re-create the recipe you posted (on paper/in my brewing calculator), if possible - not the Tribute, but the Daylight Robbery. According to this website
https://www.traditionaloven.com/culinary-arts/volume/convert-barrel-beer-bl-us-to-galon-gal-us.html
a US Barrel is 31 Gallons (I don't know if it's the same as a British Barrel). That would certainly make a difference in my calculator!
I've come close as far as the color (23 SRM), but the OG (using the kg in the recipe) comes out to be 1.064 (7.3% ABV), rather than 1.044 (4.2% ABV).
I'm using the BrewTarget beer calculator and I scaled the recipe down to 5 gallons (US), using the 31 gallon/bbl. I wish I knew more about the measurements he used, because it surprises me that the temps are in F, rather than C and the hops total is in lbs. instead of kg. As well, I wish he hadn't covered up the times of the hop additions, and I can't tell what the hop addition quantities are, but I've tried to match them up to 1.5 lbs. and guessed at the times 60, 30. 5. minutes and a 20 min hopstand after flameout (at least that's what it looks like to me).

Any insight you can give me would be much appreciated, as I do like to brew British beers (Porters, Stouts, IPAs, and Bitters.

I'm going to re-do the recipe using your quantity of 108 US gallons to see how much closer it comes to the 4.2% beer he brewed. I'll get back after I re-do the recipe.
Thanks for posting this.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As I say, the volume numbers don't quite add up, unless they're liquoring back to 500l or something or having two runnings each of 300l or something. You can trust the grain weights, just fiddle the water volumes until you get the right OG.

As an aside, British brewer barrels are 36 imperial gallons, where 1 imperial gallon is 8 imperial pints of 20 floz, or 1 imperial gallon is 4.55 litres. Yes, we get kinda confusing about imperial vs metric, particularly in traditional industries like brewing - that's why we eg have an exemption from EU rules to allow the sale of beer in pints.

Think you're misreading though, there's a "total kgs" line for hops, then a Generation box which suggests we're onto yeast at the bottom of the page. 0.75 kg hops, 1.5lb yeast sounds plausible.

I'd assume the final addition is a dry hop rather than whirlpool.

 

[Mer-man]

I'd also love a Proper Job recipe with an accessible yeast . . .

 

[MT2sum]

As I say, the volume numbers don't quite add up, unless they're liquoring back to 500l or something or having two runnings each of 300l or something. You can trust the grain weights, just fiddle the water volumes until you get the right OG.

Thanks, I'll work on that. I used Carafa for the "Cara" to be able to get 23 SRM - Cara-Pils was way low at about 8 SRM.

As an aside, British brewer barrels are 36 imperial gallons, where 1 imperial gallon is 8 imperial pints of 20 floz, or 1 imperial gallon is 4.55 litres. Yes, we get kinda confusing about imperial vs metric, particularly in traditional industries like brewing - that's why we eg have an exemption from EU rules to allow the sale of beer in pints.

Yeah, anytime I work on a non-US recipe, I always get myself in trouble. For British recipes, I have to remember to think Imperial measurements, rather than metric.

Think you're misreading though, there's a "total kgs" line for hops, then a Generation box which suggests we're onto yeast at the bottom of the page. 0.75 kg hops, 1.5lb yeast sounds plausible.

Ahhh, I didn't notice the total kg's box! Even tho he didn't total it up, I can see now where you get the .75 kgs.
1.5 lb yeast? good thing this is commercial .... hopefully BrewTarget will scale the hops and yeast as well. I wouldn't know what their yeast was,(since it is proprietary) I use dry yeasts, S-04, Windsor, Nottingham, Munton-Fison - any suggestions which might be the closest to what you folks use there? It's my understanding that S-04 is a Whitbread strain, but I don't know thatfor sure. Here, dry yeasts are much cheaper ..... I've tried liquid yeasts twice and both failed to start fermenting, so I had to kickstart the fermentation with dry yeast. In all the years I've brewed Ale and Wines, I haven't used liquid yeast again after those two failures.

I'd assume the final addition is a dry hop rather than whirlpool.

I assumed that it was similar to a hopstand without whirlpooling the wort (I don't know if they used whirlpooling in the '90's), since it said "hold 20 minutes" next to that final addition.
I could be wrong (I am a lot, just ask my spouse!).
Thanks for your help. I'll rewrite the recipe in brewTarget using the 108 gallons and see what comes out.
Jim

Brewtarget-
Using the 108 gal (US), it comes much closer. OG=1.043, FG=1.009, IBU=17.7, SRM=18.6, ABV=4.5 I've still got to mess with the water some more, but at least now I'm in the ballpark!

BeerSmith-
Using the 108 gal (US),
OG=1053 FG=1016 IBU=22.4 SRM=19.6 ABV=4.9%

 

[Northern_Brewer]

See this thread on Jims for Proper Job.

Cara will be British CaraMalt - the Warminster version is 28 EBC, so closer to Carapils than Carafa. Don't sweat the colour too much, it's normal British practice to adjust it with caramel so you don't want to ruin the flavour by adjusting colour with flavourful speciality malts.

S-04 is most closely related to WLP006 Bedford, allegedly from Charles Wells. Windsor, S-33 and Munton's "ordinary" are all closely related and apparently are descended from the old EDME yeast. Nottingham is probably the most commonly used here as it's so clean and well-behaved, S-04 floccs well but has a bit more character, Windsor drops well but is very powdery so you need to pour carefully, and has more character - Windsor followed by Notty after high krausen is one way to combine more flavour with good flocculation.

The world of British yeasts is a complicated and fascinating one, there's no one yeast that has the ubiquity of Chico in the US. But S-04 will do you for now.

Yep, fair enough, that 20 minutes probably does equate to a hopstand, although they weren't common then.

 

[oldwhiskers]

For 5 US gallons, roughly using the following grain weights will get you within tweaking range 5.78\1.65\4.1\4.1.

 

[MT2sum]

Cara will be British CaraMalt - the Warminster version is 28 EBC, so closer to Carapils than Carafa. Don't sweat the colour too much, it's normal British practice to adjust it with caramel so you don't want to ruin the flavour by adjusting colour with flavourful speciality malts.

S-04 is most closely related to WLP006 Bedford, allegedly from Charles Wells. Windsor, S-33 and Munton's "ordinary" are all closely related and apparently are descended from the old EDME yeast. Nottingham is probably the most commonly used here as it's so clean and well-behaved, S-04 floccs well but has a bit more character, Windsor drops well but is very powdery so you need to pour carefully, and has more character - Windsor followed by Notty after high krausen is one way to combine more flavour with good flocculation.

The world of British yeasts is a complicated and fascinating one, there's no one yeast that has the ubiquity of Chico in the US. But S-04 will do you for now.

Yep, fair enough, that 20 minutes probably does equate to a hopstand, although they weren't common then.

OK, I went with the carapils for now, neither BeerSmith nor BrewTarget show the Caramalt, so I'll have to do some research to add it to both programs.

I like the idea fo using Windsor and then after HK, use Notty - I'd like to see what that would do in one of my brews coming up.

As far as hopstand, maybe Roger invented it way back then, and somebody just recently got the credit for it ;>) (Was it DFH?).

Anyways, thanks for your help. It's much appreciated. Most of the recipes for my British beers come from a book put out by the Durden Park Circle ("Old British Beers and How to Make Them" by Dr. John Harrison and members of the Durden Park Circle); and also Ron Pattinson's book, ("The Homebrewer's Guide to Vintage Beers"). I have more brewing books, but those two books are a treasure trove to me! I just finished off a Porter from the OBB book, so I'm working on another. I've got to look into Terry Foster's Pale Ale book and see if he mentions the St. Austell Brewery. I don't think he does, but there are a lot of old recipes in there as well.

 

[MT2sum]

ish

For 5 US gallons, roughly using the following grain weights will get you within tweaking range 5.78\1.65\4.1\4.1.

oz
Yeah, after scaling the 108 gallons down to 5 gallons on beerSmith, and then lowering the OG to 1.044 as it is in the recipe, I got 5lb, 11oz of Maris, 1lb 10oz Munich, and 6.5oz each of the Cara and Wheat malts, so I came out pretty close I figure. I'd just like to know a bit more about the hops - times and quantities - I've got some quantities, since Northern brewer pointed out the total hops of .75 kg and yeast at 1.5 lb? I think the yeast for a 5 gal batch won't be too hard to figure - either 1 or 2 packets!

If I do brew this, I'll raise the gravity and bitterness up, because I hate to put in all that brewing time for a lawnmower beer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If I do brew this, I'll raise the gravity and bitterness up, because I hate to put in all that brewing time for a lawnmower beer.

See, that's the kind of thing I don't really understand - if you want "not a lawnmower beer" then just go an brew an imperial stout or something. This is best bitter territory, the best beer a brewery can make - it just happens to be less strong than in some other brewing traditions. But if you take best bitter above 4.5% or so then it kinda destroys the whole point of it, which is the balance between the various components (including alcohol) that makes it so drinkable. Kegging tends to have the same problem, too much carbonic acid wrecks the balance. Balance is everything for British styles.

OK, I went with the carapils for now, neither BeerSmith nor BrewTarget show the Caramalt, so I'll have to do some research to add it to both programs.

Current Brewtarget database has Simpsons - Caramalt at 35 SRM and Simpsons - Caramalt Light at 13SRM, I guess the latter is closer to the Warminster version. I guess US caramel at 10-20L will be close-ish.

Thing with hopstands is not so much the concept, it's just a lot of British breweries were historically not set up to do it, so they tended to dry hop instead.

Durden Park is old school! (in a good way)

 

[Mer-man]

Yeah, that didn't help much with the PJ clone. More information in the Retribution Brewing site

 

[MT2sum]

See, that's the kind of thing I don't really understand - if you want "not a lawnmower beer" then just go an brew an imperial stout or something. This is best bitter territory, the best beer a brewery can make - it just happens to be less strong than in some other brewing traditions. But if you take best bitter above 4.5% or so then it kinda destroys the whole point of it, which is the balance between the various components (including alcohol) that makes it so drinkable. Kegging tends to have the same problem, too much carbonic acid wrecks the balance. Balance is everything for British styles.

I'm of the age (most of your movies/TV series, refer to people my age as 'pensioners') that the inflow of dollars has gotten to be much smaller than when I was able to find work. Now I brew smaller batches and higher ABVs because I have to limit my intake to a couple of beers a week. That being said, I'll brew this recipe according to the original recipe at first, and save a couple to compare with a higher ABV batch later. My taster isn't what it once was, so that's why I mostly brew IPAs, Porters, and Stouts - I can really taste them ..... most of the pale ales out there have no taste for me, but I will brew according to the recipe at least once - you've convinced me!

Current Brewtarget database has Simpsons - Caramalt at 35 SRM and Simpsons - Caramalt Light at 13SRM, I guess the latter is closer to the Warminster version. I guess US caramel at 10-20L will be close-ish.

You're right! I missed it because I went as far as the 'C's and stopped looking. Thanks for letting me know.

Durden Park is old school! (in a good way)

I agree 100%.

 

[MT2sum]

I just checked my emails and thought I'd share part of it with you:

Roger Ryman <[email protected]>
6:34 AM (12 hours ago)

Mark,

I have gone back to my records for the first trial of Daylight Robbery from 1999. Hops were as follows;

First hop during run in; English Fuggles, 0.2 ounces of alpha acid per barrel

Second hop, after 45’: US Willamette, 0.1 ounces of alpha acid per barrel

Third hop (hop-back or flame out), US Willamette, 0.8 ounces of alpha acid per barrel.

Note that we operate a curious mix of metric and imperial measurements. Hops are still calculated in lbs, largely because we are still using the same hop weighing scales that were purchased in 1934! Note that barrels are UK Imperial barrels = 36 UK gallons = 288 X 20 fluid ounce pints.

Whilst I would not divulge the current Tribute recipe, I can advise that we have now introduced a blend of Willamette and Styrian Golding (usually Savinski Golding, but Celeia would suffice) in the final hop.
Good luck with your brewing!
Roger


Roger Ryman
Brewing Director / Head Brewer

I had told him that I had no interest in the Tribute recipe (I wouldn't have anything to compare with a homebrewed version anyways) ..... but I'm thinking that you folks over there might be interested if you intend to work on a clone ;>).

I also think that according to the recipe he showed, he forgets one addition - looks like there are four to me - but it's close enough for me, and what he shows as hop additions add up to 1.1, rather than .75 - OR, there is something written in under that other ledger that would explain the difference! I just looked at this again (Feb 1), and maybe the 4th hop addition is a dry hop (which wouldn't add to the IBUs in a brew calculator anyways). I think I'll put it into my recipe that way so as to give it a little more hop 'zing.' Either way, it won't make me any difference, I'll just brew with the information I have and be happy :>). I wouldn't venture to bug him again to ask those questions, because I'm grateful he even bothered to answer me at all. I'm not that familiar with British brewing jargon, would run-in be a first wort hop or would it be to just add as the boil starts and you set the 60 minute timer (If the boil was 60 or 90 minutes)?
Take care.

 

[ESBrewer]

Proper Job is now available here and it is bottle conditioned, it probably contains their primary fermentation strain?

 

[MT2sum]

Proper Job is now available here and it is bottle conditioned, it probably contains their primary fermentation strain?

Are you working on a clone? As far as I know, neither Triibute nor Proper Job is available in Tennessee, and I know for sure it's not available in Montana anywhere near where I live (until I sell the place!).

 

[ESBrewer]

Are you working on a clone? As far as I know, neither Triibute nor Proper Job is available in Tennessee, and I know for sure it's not available in Montana anywhere near where I live (until I sell the place!).

Not at the moment, but it could be nice to try Tribute (or the related recipe described in the original post). If I ever try it, I'll probably harvest the yeast from a bottle of Proper Job. In my case there seems to be several planned brews but too little time available for brewing. And you are right, in Tennessee/Montana it may be impossible to find these beers.

 

[MT2sum]

OK, so I scaled the recipe down from 108 gal to 5 gal using BeerSmith. NOTE: I used Northern Brewer's assumption that the amount of hops is 0.75 kg. I still had to adjust the gravity, because B/S insisted that the gravity should be 1.053 and the ABV should be 4.9%. After adjusting the gravity down to 1.044 (didn't touch color or bitterness because we don't have a number for the IBUs in the original recipe AND as NB explained,

Don't sweat the colour too much, it's normal British practice to adjust it with caramel so you don't want to ruin the flavour by adjusting colour with flavourful speciality malts.

, and making that final hop addition as a 7 day dry hop (in secondary), this is what I'll make as a (tweaked by me) recipe - - I don't know how to do all those metric and Imperial measurements, so anyone who tries to do this with other measurements is on their own :>).
5 gal BIAB, OG=1.044 FG=1013 IBU=16.9 SRM=7.6 ABV=4.1%
Grains:
6 lb 6.5 oz Maris Otter - 3 SRM
1 lb 13.1 oz Munich malt - 9 SRM
7.4 oz Simpson's Caramalt - 35 SRM
7.4 oz Red Wheat malt - 5 SRM
Hops:
0.72 oz Fuggles - 4.5% @ 60 min
0.16 oz Willamette - 5.5% @ 45 min
0.16 oz Willamette - 5.5% @ 0 min
0.16 oz Willamette - 5.5% Dry Hop (2nd-ary) 7 days
1 pkt Safale S-04 Yeast (Fermentis Dry yeast)
Strike water - 161.6 F
Mash @ 149F
Sparge @ 170F
Boil 60 min

NOTE that this is MY interpretation of the conversations/recipe in all of the prior posts above - this is NOT Roger Ryman's interpretation nor do I guarantee is it HIS original recipe! (What I'm saying is, don't bug him if it comes out tasting bad, bug me instead, because I'm the one who might have mis-interpreted his recipe!). That being said, IF .... you have a different interpretation or a disagreement with my interpretation, please let me know before I get around to brewing this Pale Ale - as I've noted in posts above, I like to brew Porters, Stouts, and IPAs, I'm not a Pale Ale person - I'm not real sure whether this will be a good-tasting Pale Ale by looking at the recipe, you be the judge!! This is the way I'm going to brew it - at least once - as I told Northern Brewer (it might be a couple of months or so, since we only get to the big city once every month or two!).

I still haven't got around to looking at Terry Foster's Pale Ale book, so if I find something in his writings, that causes me to change or modify an ingredient, I will do so at that time (hopefully before I brew this recipe!).