Spunding mistake, oxidized wort?

[DTrain24]

TLDR - half of a 2.5 gallon batch came out of the fermenter into an open bucket after 1 day of fermentation, and I poured it back into the fermenter. Is it for sure oxidized and ruined? Or will the yeast cleanup that oxidized portion as it is early in fermentation?

Long story : I wanted to try a new technique out of pressurized fermentation in a corny keg. I planned on fermenting in the corny keg using a spunding valve, and also serving from the same corny keg using a floating dip tube. So I brewed a german wheat beer, and put the wort into the corny keg, tossed in the yeast, set the spunding valve to 22psi (so when I cold crashed it would come out at 2.4vol). However, I was tired as it got late in the night waiting for the wort to cool, and I accidently hooked the spunding valve up to the "out" port that was on floating dip tube side. When fermentation started and built up pressure it started spitting foam out the spunding valve. I thought it was just excess krausen coming up and out the top of the gas port, however it was foamy wort coming out the liquid port through the floating dip tube. I had setup a bucket to catch the intiial "excess foam". I come back 6 hours later and over a gallon of beer is now in the bucket. I picked up the keg and it was half full! Half the beer had been pumped out. So, it was either ferment the 1 gallon that was left, or add the expelled wort back into the mix, which is what I did. My question is now am I already screwed in terms of oxidation to that wort/beer, or is it early enough? Krausen was going strong at this point, basically the first day of full krausen (36 hours after pitching)

Thanks for any help!

 

[Sammy86]

Wow, quite the story...I think it's safe to say you may have some oxidation affects however you won't know anything until it's all done fermenting and you taste it.

I wouldn't immediately dump it, let it ride and see what happens!

 

[Abhishek Dewan]

Since fermentation was going on pretty strong I think you’ll be safe. Many people brew with not airtight lids for initial 3 days or so, if that gives you some confidence. Also, depends on type of beer you’re brewing. Just let it finish.

 

[Nate R]

TLDR - half of a 2.5 gallon batch came out of the fermenter into an open bucket after 1 day of fermentation, and I poured it back into the fermenter. Is it for sure oxidized and ruined? Or will the yeast cleanup that oxidized portion as it is early in fermentation?

Long story : I wanted to try a new technique out of pressurized fermentation in a corny keg. I planned on fermenting in the corny keg using a spunding valve, and also serving from the same corny keg using a floating dip tube. So I brewed a german wheat beer, and put the wort into the corny keg, tossed in the yeast, set the spunding valve to 22psi (so when I cold crashed it would come out at 2.4vol). However, I was tired as it got late in the night waiting for the wort to cool, and I accidently hooked the spunding valve up to the "out" port that was on floating dip tube side. When fermentation started and built up pressure it started spitting foam out the spunding valve. I thought it was just excess krausen coming up and out the top of the gas port, however it was foamy wort coming out the liquid port through the floating dip tube. I had setup a bucket to catch the intiial "excess foam". I come back 6 hours later and over a gallon of beer is now in the bucket. I picked up the keg and it was half full! Half the beer had been pumped out. So, it was either ferment the 1 gallon that was left, or add the expelled wort back into the mix, which is what I did. My question is now am I already screwed in terms of oxidation to that wort/beer, or is it early enough? Krausen was going strong at this point, basically the first day of full krausen (36 hours after pitching)

Thanks for any help!

I agree with Sammy- go for it!!
I have NO scientific basis for this, and i may have mis-read your post, but in my experience wheat beers (and especially the traditional wheat strains) are very forgiving. More so than say a NE ipa.

Go for it- wait it out! Please follow up with the results!!

 

[Iseneye]

Yes it will be oxidized but taste it and see. You may still like it.

 

[VikeMan]

While you're justified in being concerned about oxidation, I'd be a little more concerned about sanitation in this case. Non-sanitized bucket, open to the air?

Also, although you can ferment and serve from the same keg, I wouldn't recommend it, as your beer will be sitting on trub the whole time. Most people who spund in kegs are fermenting in one vessel, closed transferring to the second (keg) with a few gravity points remaining (leaving most of the trub behind), and spunding at that point,.

Of course, you can also use a spunding valve in place of an airlock for primary fermentation, but you really need to make sure there won't be any krausen blowing off (via volume, temp control, etc.). Even with a properly set up system (not connecting a spunding valve to liquid out - ouch), you don't want krausen/beer coming through the spunding valve. it's not at all good for the device.

 

[twd000]

sorry to hear about the swapped connections

yes it will be somewhat oxidized - that is an irreversible chemical process, later yeast activity can't clean it up

however, it may not cause an off flavor issue; just "different" than a sealed fermentation. Some styles, some tasters, it's actually preferred. I know many wheat beers are traditionally open-fermented

As far as serving from the same keg without transferring, it totally works (as long as you connect the right port!).
I have been fermenting and serving from the same keg using a floating dip tube, for 2 years now. Probably 20 batches of beer. It works great, the beer is never exposed to oxygen. The "sitting on trub" boogeyman is mostly promulgated by people who have never personally tried it. It just "seems wrong" when you see two inches of sloppy yeast cake sitting at the bottom of the keg, but the beer above it is bright, clear and delicious. No autolysis even after serving for 2 months. As we learned from saving and re-using yeast, the healthiest place to store yeast is under the beer that produced it, not rinsed under distilled water. The yeast have gone through their lifecycle and are dormant, waiting for a new sugar source. They're happy there, let them rest peacefully while you enjoy your beer.

 

[ChiknNutz]

Curious how you got the spunding valve connected to the liquid line since the ports are made to preclude that.

 

[Nate R]

Curious how you got the spunding valve connected to the liquid line since the ports are made to preclude that.

I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally hooked up gas to liquid, or vice-versa... I guess when you are as "strong" (or, more likely- not paying attention!) as I am, it is easier to do.

 

[ChiknNutz]

I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally hooked up gas to liquid, or vice-versa... I guess when you are as "strong" (or, more likely- not paying attention!) as I am, it is easier to do.

I've certainly come close, but when I feel it's not going on right, I switch and soon realize it was the wrong port.

 

[Nate R]

I've certainly come close, but when I feel it's not going on right, I switch and soon realize it was the wrong port.

Yup. Again, if I am paying attention... I would say this happens more when I hook up a keg that has been sitting (lagering) in the upright keezer. Harder for me to see in the back, etc. This does not happen as much any more, but I can see it happening. Also- I feel like some connectors are easier than others. I have a set of Torpedo stainless steel connectors that WILL NOT go on the wrong post- but they will barely go on the right post. The CMB Becker are harder. I have some kegland knock-offs that will go on anything- which can be nice if you are rigging something up. Sorry,

 

[DTrain24]

Wow so many great responses so fast! I wish my fermentation had the response time of these forums

While you're justified in being concerned about oxidation, I'd be a little more concerned about sanitation in this case. Non-sanitized bucket, open to the air?

Yes this is also a big concern of mine for sure. It was a cleaned bucket but not recently sanitized, so there is likely some contamination. I hope to drink it before it spoils as it is only about 2 gallons. On that note, how fast can something spoil? My original reasons for doing the pressurized fermentation was to try and see how fast I could do grain to glass (really just for fun to see what happens,, I am an exbeerimenter at heart more than anything).

Of course, you can also use a spunding valve in place of an airlock for primary fermentation, but you really need to make sure there won't be any krausen blowing off (via volume, temp control, etc.). Even with a properly set up system (not connecting a spunding valve to liquid out - ouch), you don't want krausen/beer coming through the spunding valve. it's not at all good for the device.

I am concerned about that too, hopefully it did not ruin anything as it took 2 months from aliexpress to get that the spunding valve! Never again BTW.... only ordering from NA from now on. When reading about pressurized fermentation, the pressure was in theory supposed to keep the krausen down. I should have also used some anti-foaming agent, but I also try to do these exbeeriments not using anything but the base ingredients with no additives (again just for fun, if it doesn't work I will try the anti-foaming stuff)

yes it will be somewhat oxidized - that is an irreversible chemical process, later yeast activity can't clean it up

Oh okay thanks, that is kind of what I was after here. I have read some recipes that aerate during fermentation, specifically with bigger beers, so I was wondering if this was similar.

I know many wheat beers are traditionally open-fermented

I was hoping this would also be the case as I have seen that also. I guess the sanitization with the bucket would be a bigger worry than a little oxidization.

Curious how you got the spunding valve connected to the liquid line since the ports are made to preclude that.

I am a big gorilla that very often breaks things I am working on by accident I think I just smashed it on and didn't think twice. I had issues cooling the wort down and it got late at night, im sure I wasn't patient or paying great attention. Maybe also because it is a cheap aliexpress one, as others above have suggested.

As far as serving from the same keg without transferring, it totally works (as long as you connect the right port!).
I have been fermenting and serving from the same keg using a floating dip tube, for 2 years now. Probably 20 batches of beer. It works great, the beer is never exposed to oxygen. The "sitting on trub" boogeyman is mostly promulgated by people who have never personally tried it. It just "seems wrong" when you see two inches of sloppy yeast cake sitting at the bottom of the keg, but the beer above it is bright, clear and delicious. No autolysis even after serving for 2 months. As we learned from saving and re-using yeast, the healthiest place to store yeast is under the beer that produced it, not rinsed under distilled water. The yeast have gone through their lifecycle and are dormant, waiting for a new sugar source. They're happy there, let them rest peacefully while you enjoy your beer.

This is exactly what I was thinking/hoping for. Everything I have read about this method seems to point to what you just said, people love it and don't go back. Autolysis shouldn't be an issue for small homebrews even leaving them for long periods, it is more about the pressure being so huge for large commercial brewers. That is my understanding from reading the internet but I am not 100% on the science of it. If anyone knows the correct answer here I would appreciate it.

There is also no way 2 gallons of beer will last even a month around me and my beer drinking friends either, I will likely fill up a few growlers and send them to some friends for trials, so it will be gone within a week or 2.

Also after so many responses so quick I would feel bad leaving this thread without reporting back, so I will report back with results likely in a week. My friend who got me into brewing has done this method recently and has got grain to glass in 9 days, and claims it is the best tasting beer he has made. He is a very careful brewer that does all the water chemistry and avoids oxygen at all costs and everything so I don't doubt his words, he even inserts gelatin with a syringe through the pressure relief valve to avoid oxygen. My goal is to make it even faster than 9 days. I have just recently read about Kveik yeast strains that you can do at higher fermentation temperatures. The pressurized fermentation is also meant to allow strains to work at higher temperatures without producing esters.

So my next experiment will be to use Kveik yeast, pressurized fermentation at high temperatures (85ish), with a spunding valve from the start set around 22psi. Once fermentation is complete, set the psi to 9, cold crash to 35f and serve out of the same keg with the floating dip tube.

Thanks for all the responses!

Cheers

 

[VikeMan]

The "sitting on trub" boogeyman is mostly promulgated by people who have never personally tried it. It just "seems wrong" when you see two inches of sloppy yeast cake sitting at the bottom of the keg, but the beer above it is bright, clear and delicious. No autolysis even after serving for 2 months.

Autolysis is happening all the time. It's happening even early in the fermentation. It's even happening in liquid yeast packs sitting in refrigerators. If you can, take a sample of your yeast that's been sitting in your beer for 2-3 months, rinse and dilute appropriately, and have a look under a microscope. Or measure the pH of your beer once it's fully carbonated, and again towards the end of your keg. The only question is whether or not it has affected your beer to the point where you can taste it.

Also, autolysis is not the only thing to be concerned about. Fatty acids in the trub will break down into, literally, soap. Again, the only question is whether or not it has affected your beer to the point where you can taste it.

 

[twd000]

Autolysis is happening all the time. It's happening even early in the fermentation. It's even happening in liquid yeast packs sitting in refrigerators. If you can, take a sample of your yeast that's been sitting in your beer for 2-3 months, rinse and dilute appropriately, and have a look under a microscope. Or measure the pH of your beer once it's fully carbonated, and again towards the end of your keg. The only question is whether or not it has affected your beer to the point where you can taste it.

Also, autolysis is not the only thing to be concerned about. Fatty acids in the trub will break down into, literally, soap. Again, the only question is whether or not it has affected your beer to the point where you can taste it.

you're right - I should have been more precise by saying "detectable autolysis"

have you ever tried serving from your fermenting keg?

 

[VikeMan]

have you ever tried serving from your fermenting keg?

No. It's on the list of things I will never try. I see no reason to increase the level of autolysis products and/or fatty acid salts (soap), when I'm really pretty sure it can't improve the beer. At best, the result might be below flavor thresholds, but that, to me, isn't a reason to do it.

 

[twd000]

No. It's on the list of things I will never try. I see no reason to increase the level of autolysis products and/or fatty acid salts (soap), when I'm really pretty sure it can't improve the beer. At best, the result might be below flavor thresholds, but that, to me, isn't a reason to do it.

I admire your certainty.

 

[VikeMan]

I admire your certainty.

Tell me how it theoretically improves the beer.

 

[twd000]

Tell me how it theoretically improves the beer.

zero oxygen exposure. pitch yeast, seal the lid, spund to 30 psi, cold crash, serve.

 

[VikeMan]

zero oxygen exposure. pitch yeast, seal the lid, spund to 30 psi, cold crash, serve.

I purge my keg with CO2 from the fermentation, purge the transfer line, and close xfer. No significant trub, and suspended yeast only. Again, there's no reason at all for me to increase the level of autolysis products and/or fatty acid salts (soap).

 

[twd000]

that method works, too. Mine is just simpler!

what about bottle-conditioned beers that age for over a year at room temperature? Do those taste like soap to you? All that yeast in the bottom is auto-lysing that whole time.

 

[VikeMan]

what about bottle-conditioned beers that age for over a year at room temperature? Do those taste like soap to you? All that yeast in the bottom is auto-lysing that whole time.

Typically they don't taste like soap to me, but a few have. But they also don't typically contain much trub (other than the yeast that settles after bottle carbonating). A reasonably well executed bottle conditioned beer doesn't have hop material or break material, and has just enough yeast to carbonate. The amount of yeast dusting the bottom of a bottle (all the bottles added up) is tiny compared to the yeast left in a fermenter at the end of fermentation.

I'll add that beers that condition for long periods at room temps (or at least cellar temps) tend to be big, flavorful beers that can hide some low level off flavors.

But you and I clearly have different opinions about risk management. I avoid allowing stuff in my finished beer that could cause problems. You don't, (presumably) because you haven't had those problems. I'll take the cheap insurance.

 

[Vale71]

The yeast have gone through their lifecycle and are dormant, waiting for a new sugar source. They're happy there, let them rest peacefully while you enjoy your beer.

Actually, they're in a state of starvation and continuously exposed to what to them is toxic waste (alcohol and CO2). But the picture you paint is certainly more romantic...

One thing you got right is that they've gone through their lifecycle which, like all lifecycles, will ultimately end in death and decomposition. Not even yeast is immortal.

 

[twd000]

But you and I clearly have different opinions about risk management. I avoid allowing stuff in my finished beer that could cause problems. You don't, (presumably) because you haven't had those problems. I'll take the cheap insurance.

We do, and that's fine with me. One brewer's "cheap insurance" is "extraneous steps" to another. There was a time when we were all convinced racking to a secondary fermentation vessel was absolutely necessary.

I try to keep an open mind until I've tried a new method. After 20 batches of first-hand experience, I feel comfortable recommending it to other brewers who are curious about trying it.

I see a lot of hearsay and received wisdom being repeated, based on what "could" happen, instead of first-hand experience of what "does" happen

 

[twd000]

Actually, they're in a state of starvation and continuously exposed to what to them is toxic waste (alcohol and CO2). But the picture you paint is certainly more romantic...

One thing you got right is that they've gone through their lifecycle which, like all lifecycles, will ultimately end in death and decomposition. Not even yeast is immortal.

haha I like to picture the yeast cells drunkenly sleeping off their latest binge in a heap of slovenly torpor. Like Belushi, some of them will never awaken.

 

[LuukGx]

Also, autolysis is not the only thing to be concerned about. Fatty acids in the trub will break down into, literally, soap. Again, the only question is whether or not it has affected your beer to the point where you can taste it.

All the research that has been done on this subject suggests that autolysis is not a noticable problem for the first month or two of sitting on the yeast..

 

[VikeMan]

All the research that has been done on this subject suggests that autolysis is not a noticable problem for the first month or two of sitting on the yeast..

A month I can pretty much agree with. Two months is tempting fate, IMO. I don't necessarily mean full on soy sauce. I'm talking more about creeping high pH and flabbiness.

Can you provide links to the research you're referring to?

 

[LuukGx]

Not on this PC, but as I recall there was a Brulosophy experiment as well as some more general discussions. I forgot to add "recent" to research, it seems like one of those things that was taken as gospel back in the day. I've only dipped my toe in the brewing world so to speak, but I've been reading as much as humanly possible on the subject.

 

[VikeMan]

Not on this PC, but as I recall there was a Brulosophy experiment as well as some more general discussions.

This one?
http://brulosophy.com/2019/03/18/im...mary-fermentation-vessel-exbeeriment-results/
The result (13 correct choices, with p = 0.012) indicates that if there were no difference, there was only a 1.2% chance that 13 or more would have got it right. But 13 did. That's a pretty good indication that the tasters did detect a difference. And that's with only 3 weeks additional time in the fermenter. It's one data point, and the experimental method could be debated, but the result says nothing at all to indicate that autolysis is not noticeable after "X" days extended fermenter time.

 

[dtashmore547]

when you start a ferment there should be plenty of air in the wort as test should start working in an aerobic condition, this then produces a small amount of glycerol, your error may have just increased the glycerol content of your ale, this should only improve the mouth feel of the finished product, once the yeast is active it will drive off all the oxygen to achieve an anaerobic condition where it will start producing alcohol. this is the safest time of ale production as yeast creates it's own antibiotic and is quite capable of warding off most competition unless your bucket was rather dirty. I believe you have absolutely nothing to be concerned about, the vigorous ferment will also create a head space of co2 to keep oxygen away from your ale. once the ferment starts dying off then care must be taken to prevent oxidation and contamination. yeast goes dormant once the food source has been used up, regular racking helps keep dead cells out of the ale send those cells in a bottle conditioned ale will last for months and still be viable, try making a starter from some, takes a couple of days but you can use it for another batch.

 

[Vale71]

this is the safest time of ale production as yeast creates it's own antibiotic and is quite capable of warding off most competition unless your bucket was rather dirty.

Did you just make that part up?

 

[dtashmore547]

Did you just make that part up?

no it is quite correct, like many bacteria they have to defend themselves against other organisms, do some research if you don't believe.

 

[Vale71]

You must have gotten yeast mixed up with penicillun. Either that or you're just making stuff up to appear knowledgeable.

 

[dtashmore547]

You must have gotten yeast mixed up with penicillun. Either that or you're just making stuff up to appear knowledgeable.

where do you think penicillin comes from? it originated in a form of mould, which is also a fungi as is yeast, do a bit of research you may learn a bit, there are many types of antibiotics most are deliver from either fungi or bacteria.

 

[Vale71]

Nonsense. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. May I suggest you try and learn something before you start posting. Unless trolling is what you're really after...

 

[dtashmore547]

Nonsense. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. May I suggest you try and learn something before you start posting. Unless trolling is what you're really after...

definitely have no intention of trolling, read this article, I could find a dozen on the same subject.
https://scholar.google.co.za/schola...vis=1&oi=scholart#d=gs_qabs&u=#p=H0oQlkxR-QIJI have worked on this principle all my brewing life, never bothered to sterilise my equipment during vigorous yeast activity and scrape of the brown protein scum off the top with a kitchen spoon, if I was wrong I would have plenty of failures.

 

[VikeMan]

where do you think penicillin comes from? it originated in a form of mould, which is also a fungi as is yeast, do a bit of research you may learn a bit, there are many types of antibiotics most are deliver from either fungi or bacteria.

Saccharomyces cerevisiae and Penicillium are not closely related. They are roughly as close to each other as humans are to rainbow trout. By your logic, we should be able to secrete glycoprotein slimes to thwart parasites.

A few strains of Sacch c., not ones typically used in brewing beer, are killer strains that produce a protein that's toxic to susceptible yeast strains. Even if we were to use those strains in beer brewing, they wouldn't protect a fermentation from contamination by bacteria.

definitely have no intention of trolling, read this article, I could find a dozen on the same subject.
https://scholar.google.co.za/schola...vis=1&oi=scholart#d=gs_qabs&u=#p=H0oQlkxR-QIJ

You didn't link an article. You linked a search results page. Which paper did you have in mind? Please be sure it's one that shows that a brewer's yeast strain makes antibiotics that are effective against brewhouse contaminants.

 

[dtashmore547]

Saccharomyces cerevisiae and Penicillium are not closely related. They are roughly as close to each other as humans are to rainbow trout. By your logic, we should be able to secrete glycoprotein slimes to thwart parasites.

A few strains of Sacch c., not ones typically used in brewing beer, are killer strains that produce a protein that's toxic to susceptible yeast strains. Even if we were to use those strains in beer brewing, they wouldn't protect a fermentation from contamination by bacteria.



You didn't link an article. You linked a search results page. Which paper did you have in mind? Please be sure it's one that shows that a brewer's yeast strain makes antibiotics that are effective against brewhouse contaminants.

I see you doing be convinced, but just as a last update here is a paper about the subject. it only mentions bakers yeast but most folk would except that as a close relative to our brewing stains.

 

[VikeMan]

I see you doing be convinced, but just as a last update here is a paper about the subject. it only mentions bakers yeast but most folk would except that as a close relative to our brewing stains.

Just two problems with that paper:
- Not a brewers yeast strain
- None of the pathogens tested are common brewhouse contaminants

You do realize that many, many people intentionally make sour and funky beers by co-pitching Lactobacillus (or other bacteria) and/or Brett yeast strains along with Sacch brewing strains, right? And at the end of those fermentations, the yeast(s) and the bacteria are still perfectly viable.

And countless beers intended to be clean have been ruined by unwanted microbes, in spite of the presence of healthy, live brewers yeast strains.

 

[dtashmore547]

at the end is the operative word, I mentioned that the yeast activity is high when the protective nature of yeast is operative, when the yeast activity dies down there will be no protection that is usually when ales get contaminated. the other period of contamination risk is before the ferment.

 

[VikeMan]

at the end is the operative word, I mentioned that the yeast activity is high when the protective nature of yeast is operative, when the yeast activity dies down there will be no protection that is usually when ales get contaminated. the other period of contamination risk is before the ferment.

When people make sour beers with a co-pitch, the pH reduction due to the bacteria is progressively evident. It doesn't just begin after the Brewers Yeast has finished. Even if the co-pitched bacteria somehow only became active after the Sacch yeast was finished, how would they have survived your claimed antibiotic in the first place?