Spices before or after long-term aging?

[MxWhiskey]

My question is fairly straightforward, would it be better to spice my mead before long-term aging or after? I'm about to start a risky batch that is going to age for the next 21 years at roughly 18% and I want to spice it. What I'm not sure of is whether the volatile compounds in spices will degrade over that time or if the alcohol "preserves" them. I intend to use Ceylon cinnamon, clove, nutmeg, allspice, ginger, and Madagascar vanilla.

 

[Dan O]

My question is fairly straightforward, would it be better to spice my mead before long-term aging or after? I'm about to start a risky batch that is going to age for the next 21 years at roughly 18% and I want to spice it. What I'm not sure of is whether the volatile compounds in spices will degrade over that time or if the alcohol "preserves" them. I intend to use Ceylon cinnamon, clove, nutmeg, allspice, ginger, and Madagascar vanilla.

21 years, wow!
How will you be bulk aging?
Barrels? Bottles?
Corks or flip top with gaskets?
Or airlocks?
Just curious.

From my experience, spices will change over time, meaning when you decide to pull them, the flavors will be strong, some spices more prominent & potent than others, but as it ages, sometimes the forward spices will take a backseat & some of the others will come forward. I wouldn't go as far to say the alcohol would preserve them.

My personal experience with clove has taught me to be cautious, very cautious, as it is an extremely strong spice that can easily overtake many others & possibly mask them altogether. (I've settled on 1/2 clove/gallon for my personal tastes). A little goes a long way with cloves....literally.

Whichever way you decide, I'm sure that after 21 years, if everything goes as planned & no issues arise, that will be plenty of time for all of the flavors to play on each other & meld perfectly into a damn tasty beverage.

I hope this helps you.
Happy meading

 

[MxWhiskey]

21 years, wow!
How will you be bulk aging?
Barrels? Bottles?
Corks or flip top with gaskets?
Or airlocks?
Just curious.

From my experience, spices will change over time, meaning when you decide to pull them, the flavors will be strong, some spices more prominent & potent than others, but as it ages, sometimes the forward spices will take a backseat & some of the others will come forward. I wouldn't go as far to say the alcohol would preserve them.

My personal experience with clove has taught me to be cautious, very cautious, as it is an extremely strong spice that can easily overtake many others & possibly mask them altogether. (I've settled on 1/2 clove/gallon for my personal tastes). A little goes a long way with cloves....literally.

Whichever way you decide, I'm sure that after 21 years, if everything goes as planned & no issues arise, that will be plenty of time for all of the flavors to play on each other & meld perfectly into a damn tasty beverage.

I hope this helps you.
Happy meading

I really appreciate your answer! I'm planning for 21 years after I saw someone else post about doing a mead for their newborn that wouldn't be drank until their child turned 21, and I wanted to do similar. Its late for my son, he's already almost 6 months (time really flies). It got delayed due to his serious health problems when he was born, and I was very preoccupied.

I plan on bulk aging in a glass fermentation vessel, but I was considering getting a barrel. I am, unfortunately, broke and barrels of any kind are pricey although the metal "barrels" that have the oak for a lib only are much more reasonably priced so we will see. I do plan on using an airlock. I have a Little Big Mouth Bubbler so I'll either age it in that or in a carboy, depending on how much I can get off the lees.

 

[Dan O]

Not sure of your batch size or fermentor bung size but these breathable bungs will save the trouble of checking airlock liquid.
https://morewinemaking.com/products/silicone-bung-breathable-pet-carboy-10.html

 

[MxWhiskey]

Not sure of your batch size or fermentor bung size but these breathable bungs will save the trouble of checking airlock liquid.
https://morewinemaking.com/products/silicone-bung-breathable-pet-carboy-10.html

That one doesn't fit what I have, but I went ahead and googled for ones that did and sure enough found some. Thank you so much for this find, this is damn perfect!

Universal Breathable Bung

 

[IAmPistolPete]

Couple of thoughts...
First off, congrats on the new baby boy! Hope his health continues to improve.

My major fears of aging something for that long would be infection & oxidation. Even fine wines can only age if it has the right acidity, tannins, ABV, storage environmental conditions. I personally would bulk age til the spices are where you want them [careful with cinnamon & nutmeg especially, they over-extract & turn bitter real fast] and maybe even throw in a chunk of French oak. Be very clean & use sulfites. After 6-12mos it will be crystal clear & you should have an idea what it will evolve into.
Then bottle in dark glass, cork, seals, etc & store on their side to give yourself the best chance of survival. Those "BadMo" metal barrels are great for long term aging spirits & some wines but are prone to leakage & angel's share as well.

 

[MxWhiskey]

My major fears of aging something for that long would be infection & oxidation. Even fine wines can only age if it has the right acidity, tannins, ABV, storage environmental conditions. I personally would bulk age til the spices are where you want them [careful with cinnamon & nutmeg especially, they over-extract & turn bitter real fast] and maybe even throw in a chunk of French oak. Be very clean & use sulfites.

This is my exact concern as well. I even cautioned someone else on this site about this exact possibility. I do use k-meta every time I make mead, as I'm not sensitive to it. I also was planning on at least using a spiral of Medium toast American Oak. Why do you recommend French? And how long would you extract nutmeg and cinnamon for? I was planning on up to 2 weeks for all the spices in a little bag to make it easy to remove.

Those "BadMo" metal barrels are great for long term aging spirits & some wines but are prone to leakage & angel's share as well.

Any suggestions for how to mitigate the leakage? I know with traditional barrels you want to soak them first to swell the wood.

 

[IAmPistolPete]

This is my exact concern as well. I even cautioned someone else on this site about this exact possibility. I do use k-meta every time I make mead, as I'm not sensitive to it. I also was planning on at least using a spiral of Medium toast American Oak. Why do you recommend French? And how long would you extract nutmeg and cinnamon for? I was planning on up to 2 weeks for all the spices in a little bag to make it easy to remove.

I like French oak for more cinnamon, nutmeg, clove, vanilla, and toasted bread-type baking spices to American's vanilla, coconut sweeter spices. For the spices def use a BIAB or cheesecloth. Test the spice level after 2 days. If it needs more leave another day then remove. Wait an additional 1-2days to mellow & taste. Reinstall bag with fresh spices but geared toward what's missing & not what's there - but only if needed. Again this is what I do but I like more subtle nuanced flavors.

Any suggestions for how to mitigate the leakage? I know with traditional barrels you want to soak them first to swell the wood.

Barrels are specifically designed to allow "micro-oxygenation" - small amounts of air goes in while allowing vapor out due to the woods grain structure. A little bit is be good for the aging effect. The stainless steel barrels with wood end cap are specifically designed to mimic the surface-to-liquid ratios in large-format barrels so it doesn't allow over-extractions of the wood's compounds or too high air-vapor exchange. Their problem is that wood expands & contracts while metal does not. As you lose product to the air the volume goes down & part of the would dries. They work well but not a perfect match. I wouldn't risk 21 years on it.

 

[IAmPistolPete]

...also be sure to sterilize the spices. I toss mine in boiling water for about 30sec then strain them out before adding to my cider.

 

[MxWhiskey]

I like French oak for more cinnamon, nutmeg, clove, vanilla, and toasted bread-type baking spices to American's vanilla, coconut sweeter spices.

Good to know! I happen to have spirals of both, as I used the French for a Strawberry Vanilla mead I just made.

For the spices def use a BIAB or cheesecloth. Test the spice level after 2 days. If it needs more leave another day then remove. Wait an additional 1-2days to mellow & taste. Reinstall bag with fresh spices but geared toward what's missing & not what's there - but only if needed.

Super solid advice. I sometimes forget how quickly alcohol can extract flavors.

Barrels are specifically designed to allow "micro-oxygenation" - small amounts of air goes in while allowing vapor out due to the woods grain structure. A little bit is be good for the aging effect. The stainless steel barrels with wood end cap are specifically designed to mimic the surface-to-liquid ratios in large-format barrels so it doesn't allow over-extractions of the wood's compounds or too high air-vapor exchange. Their problem is that wood expands & contracts while metal does not. As you lose product to the air the volume goes down & part of the would dries. They work well but not a perfect match. I wouldn't risk 21 years on it.

I might just swing for a legit wooden barrel and just plan for that level of cost. I've found a manufacturer of small barrels before, so that may be an option. Or I'll just use a spiral and bottle age with cork. Seems like I'll be better saving the use of a BadMo for a shorter long term (1 year or less).

 

[MxWhiskey]

...also be sure to sterilize the spices. I toss mine in boiling water for about 30sec then strain them out before adding to my cider.

Oh? I didn't think they'd need it being dried. Thanks for that.

 

[Dan O]

That one doesn't fit what I have, but I went ahead and googled for ones that did and sure enough found some. Thank you so much for this find, this is damn perfect!

Universal Breathable Bung

Happy to help when I can.

 

[IAmPistolPete]

Just curious... what size batch are we talking here? Anything smaller than a 5gal bbl you will very quickly over-extract to an "oak tea" & lose more volume. Higher surface-to-volume ratios. I know someone who had a 5liter barrel of bourbon he made for his sister's wedding. There was less than half left after 18 months. Granted spirits evaporate faster than wines but you get the idea.

 

[MxWhiskey]

Just curious... what size batch are we talking here? Anything smaller than a 5gal bbl you will very quickly over-extract to an "oak tea" & lose more volume. Higher surface-to-volume ratios. I know someone who had a 5liter barrel of bourbon he made for his sister's wedding. There was less than half left after 18 months. Granted spirits evaporate faster than wines but you get the idea.

1.4 gal in a Little Big Mouth Bubbler. I can't drink in volume anymore, I had a gastric bypass about a year ago so making much more than that just isn't worth it right now.

 

[IAmPistolPete]

I actually just had a thought...
Get a 5gal bbl. Every year for his bday put down a 1gal batch to add to the bbl. It can become a yearly tradition when he gets older to help you. It'll help to keep up with angel's share and each year draw a sample to see where it's going & if the recipe needs adjusting. Maybe you draw a sample together for special occasions like graduations or other milestones. At 21yo you have the makings of a great party!!

 

[MxWhiskey]

I actually just had a thought...
Get a 5gal bbl. Every year for his bday put down a 1gal batch to add to the bbl. It can become a yearly tradition when he gets older to help you. It'll help to keep up with angel's share and each year draw a sample to see where it's going & if the recipe needs adjusting. Maybe you draw a sample together for special occasions like graduations or other milestones. At 21yo you have the makings of a great party!!

What do you mean by bbl?

 

[IAmPistolPete]

Short for barrel