Sparkling wine loosing carbonation in the lines

[Nitrousbird]

I have a 6 tap Keezer, with CO2 and Argon gas supplies.

We kegged half of a batch of wine and forced carbed it at about 40psi. It's good except when you first use it the sparkling wine in the lines has lost most of its carbonation. Once that comes out, then what is in the keg is fully carbed.

There are no leaks in the system. No wine leaking out anywhere and no gas leaks of any kind.

I can't shorten the line at this pressure and it is actually too short right now (30').

Not sure why it is doing this. We haven't done much with sparkling wine yet. I don't have this problem with any of our home brew or commercial beers, nor do I have this problem with the commercial ciders I have purchased.

 

[Nitrousbird]

Anyone? I know it's not the popular thing here (wine making and kegging wine), but its important to the wife, who is cool with having the Keezer in a very visible part of our home.

 

[DrunkleJon]

You are serving with argon gas? hmm.. strange. Oh well.

My knowledge is mainly with pure CO2 but here is what I know about this problem with the standard beer pressures, ect.

CO2 will come out of solution in the lines and have a flat/foamy first pour usually for two reasons.
1 - The serving pressure is lower than the carbonation level. After a pour the gas will come out of solution and form bubbles in the serving lines so that pressure can come to equilibrium. To solve this increase your serving pressure until the bubbles stop forming or degas your beer/wine over a day or two and then put back to serving pressure.
2 - You are suffering from temperature stratification where your lines are warmer than your wine. The warmer lines are warming the wine and as a result the gas is again coming out of solution (cold liquids hold gas better) and once the lines are cool, everything operates fine until it warms back up again. To solve this problem, put a fan or something in the keezer to even out the temperature. Additionally glycol can be used, but that is used more often with long draw systems where the lines leave the keezer for distances.

It could also be a mix of the two. If it were line resistance you would be blowing the gas out of suspension on all pours and it would not get better after you pull a glass or two.

 

[zachattack]

My guess is he's using the argon to push non-sparkling wine?

I'd agree that it's probably a temperature stratification issue. With beer you'd have a good amount of foaming, but with wine I doubt you'd notice.

 

[barnaclebob]

Is it foaming up when you first pour it or does it just pour flat from the lines? It shouldn't be going flat in the lines because they are at the same pressure as the rest of it.

What exactly are you doing with argon?

 

[DrunkleJon]

I hope the Argon was a confusion and the OP meant Beer gas (which is Nitrogen and CO2).
http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/0151.pdf
Argon seems a little scary for serving and possibly not 'food safe'.

The OP said it was sparkling wine. My bet is it is definitely temperature stratification. OP, can we get a little more information about your method of force carbonation? Did you set it to 40 and shake the everloving crap out of it, or just set to 40 and let it sit? With mixed gas serving, people tend to carbonate first with CO2 then switch it over to beer gas for serving only. Is that what you are doing? Beer gas may not carbonate it well as the Nitrogen does not really dissolve into solution.

 

[zachattack]

What exactly are you doing with argon?

I hope the Argon was a confusion and the OP meant Beer gas (which is Nitrogen and CO2).
http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/0151.pdf
Argon seems a little scary for serving and possibly not 'food safe'.

Argon is completely inert and would be identical to nitrogen for the application of pushing non-sparking wine. It's commonly used in wine bars, like nitrogen it doesn't really dissolve in water so nothing is absorbed. The only health hazard is that it can suffocate you, just like CO2. I don't think there are concerns about it not being food grade. Some people use an argon/CO2 mixture instead of beer gas in their systems, and they haven't had a problem. The argon mixtures can be easier to get because it's a common blend for welding gas.

My guess is that OP mentioned that he has argon, but it isn't being used on this particular keg.

But back on topic, yes. Temperature stratification. Like cider, wine doesn't have proteins that cause head formation/retention, so it won't foam nearly as much as beer and the foam will disappear very quickly. barnaclebob is correct in that the line is just an extension of the keg, you shouldn't lose carbonation there. Pockets of gas coming out with the liquid initially would be an indication that the line is warmer and CO2 is breaking out of solution.

 

[Nitrousbird]

To answer questions:

- Argon is for non-sparkling. It is perfectly safe and preferred over Nitrogen for wine

- I have multiple regulators (I did NOT cheap out on my setup).

- My sparkling wine is @ 40psi. It was the set and forget method. Beer is @ 12psi.


I can buy the temperature stratification. One item I haven't added in my Keezer is a circulation fan. I need to find something 120V that would be okay for inside the Keezer.

 

[zachattack]

Why 120V? Just grab a 12V PC fan and any 5-12V DC "wall wart" power supply.

 

[Nitrousbird]

Why 120V? Just grab a 12V PC fan and any 5-12V DC "wall wart" power supply.

Why would I want to do that? I just ordered a 120V fan for $12. A DC would require either running another set of wires external to my Keezer and use up another plug. A 120V I can hard wire straight to my STC-1000, and either run it 100% or when the compressor is running. My STC-1000 is wired directly into the freezer wiring instead of the stupid boxes a lot of people jerry rig up for the temp controller.

 

[DrunkleJon]

To answer questions:

- Argon is for non-sparkling. It is perfectly safe and preferred over Nitrogen for wine

- I have multiple regulators (I did NOT cheap out on my setup).

- My sparkling wine is @ 40psi. It was the set and forget method. Beer is @ 12psi.


I can buy the temperature stratification. One item I haven't added in my Keezer is a circulation fan. I need to find something 120V that would be okay for inside the Keezer.

Thank you for the argon clarification. I was not aware of Argon being used for beverage serving.

I know for Nitrogen that it does not dissolve into beer being served and it would be the CO2 part of the mix that would do the carbonating. With beer, usually the beer is pre-carbonated with CO2 alone. Could it be possible that the wine is not getting enough pressurized CO2 to carbonate it?

Edit: Whups, forgot that the subsequent pours worked. I still think its temps (i got a small desk fan from the local Targay for < $2 and put it in my ferm chamber. they are small and work well. good luck

 

[zachattack]

Why would I want to do that? I just ordered a 120V fan for $12. A DC would require either running another set of wires external to my Keezer and use up another plug. A 120V I can hard wire straight to my STC-1000, and either run it 100% or when the compressor is running. My STC-1000 is wired directly into the freezer wiring instead of the stupid boxes a lot of people jerry rig up for the temp controller.

I was able to pull the PC fan out of an old computer and the power supply out of my junk drawer. That's why :cross:

But IMO I'd rather have something low voltage in there, just for safety reasons since there's a good amount of liquid. Putting the whole thing on a GFCI circuit would work too.