Sour Stout

[BudzAndSudz]

So with Tart of Darkness I basically don't get anything other than just sourness. I'm looking to recreate something more along the lines of Crooked Stave's Dark Origins or Nightmare on Brett, where the beer tastes rich and full, with actually chocolatey malt notes coming in behind a beer that's wonderfully sour and expertly crafted. I understand roasty bitterness doesn't go well with brett, but it seems that you can get some chocolatey notes from certain malts without the astringent roasted character you'll get from black barley, for example.

Here's my crack at a recipe, let me know what you think.

Original Gravity: 1.091
Final Gravity: 1.027
ABV (standard): 8.42%
IBU (tinseth): 38.65
SRM (morey): 40

FERMENTABLES:
17 lb - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (80.6%)
1.25 lb - German - Chocolate Wheat (5.9%)
0.5 lb - German - Melanoidin (2.4%)
1 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 80L (4.7%)
0.33 lb - German - De-Husked Caraf II (1.6%)
1 lb - Flaked Oats (4.7%)

HOPS:
0.5 oz - Magnum, Type: Pellet, AA: 14, Use: Boil for 90 min, IBU: 19.5

YEAST:
White Labs - British Ale Yeast WLP005

 

[CorporateHippie]

I hope you try it and keep us updated..... I personally wouldn't go that BIG but that is what makes this hobby so much fun!

 

[BudzAndSudz]

I hope you try it and keep us updated..... I personally wouldn't go that BIG but that is what makes this hobby so much fun!

Well part of the reason I went so big is because both of the beers I listed are nearly 10% ABV, and considered world class sours.

 

[dcp27]

so what are you doing to this to actually make it a sour? it kinda sounds like you're just going to use brett, which isn't going to make this a sour. If that is your route, I think your recipe looks fine. I haven't paired 005 with brett, it produces plenty of esters so it should work fine, but I'd personally go with 530 instead. If you will be using bacteria to actually make a sour tho, you should reduce your IBUs and OG otherwise lacto isn't going to do a thing. In either case, your FG is definitely going to be considerably less than 1.027 in the final product, so be sure to keep that in mind.

 

[Failing_Ales]

I agree that Tart of Darkness was sort of one dimensional and not very dark tasting. I'd reduce the IBUs simply from a flavor standpoint, but otherwise the recipe looks good to me. Assuming you are pitching a mixed culture including brett and pedio, I would recommend taking some steps to limit attenuation (high mash temp, long boil, and/or reducing part of the wort to a syrup). I've made many sour beers above 8% and have never had a problem getting acidity.

 

[dougdecinces]

If you want it sour, you'll need lacto/pedio along with the brett. The roselare blend is good because it has brett lambicus, which gives cherry pie flavors. I used roselare in a sour stout I made to great effect. I have never had Tart of Darkness, but like you I wanted a real, roasty, dark beer. Mine had 1/2 lb each of Carafa 2 and debitterized black. But chocolate wheat is good, too. And since your OG is so high, I would also consider adding some D90 or D180 syrup to dry it out and contribute some complex flavors.

 

[robotinc]

I too am planning a sour stout. My question has to do with pitch rates. If I go the route of pitching a mixed culture (yeast bays melange, or the roselare blend) should I make a starter?

I'm planning on a OG of 1.090 and an IBU of around 20-25.

I have heard that if you make a starter of a blend that the various bits grow at different rates and you now have a different blend. I'm also worried that a single pack/vial won't have enough cells to have a healthy fermentation.

If it matters, I'll be making 15 gallons and aging in an oak barrel that currently has a Flemish red in it.

 

[BudzAndSudz]

so what are you doing to this to actually make it a sour? it kinda sounds like you're just going to use brett, which isn't going to make this a sour. If that is your route, I think your recipe looks fine. I haven't paired 005 with brett, it produces plenty of esters so it should work fine, but I'd personally go with 530 instead. If you will be using bacteria to actually make a sour tho, you should reduce your IBUs and OG otherwise lacto isn't going to do a thing. In either case, your FG is definitely going to be considerably less than 1.027 in the final product, so be sure to keep that in mind.

Oh dang, I actually had a revised version of this around only about 20 IBU's but I forgot to make that change when I posted this thread. I had the IBU's high because that's fairly traditional for a big stout, but I had reduced them already to accommodate the bugs. I also am planning on doing a blend of sour critters, I only mentioned brett in the first post because that's the guy that traditionally has negative interactions with roasted malts. Say that I start the OG around 1.080 instead, how far down do you think that will attenuate with something like Roselare?

 

[BudzAndSudz]

If you want it sour, you'll need lacto/pedio along with the brett. The roselare blend is good because it has brett lambicus, which gives cherry pie flavors. I used roselare in a sour stout I made to great effect. I have never had Tart of Darkness, but like you I wanted a real, roasty, dark beer. Mine had 1/2 lb each of Carafa 2 and debitterized black. But chocolate wheat is good, too. And since your OG is so high, I would also consider adding some D90 or D180 syrup to dry it out and contribute some complex flavors.

Did you find that there were any strange flavors produced by having that much roasted malt in the grain bill? And that said how was the taste in other departments?

 

[dcp27]

Oh dang, I actually had a revised version of this around only about 20 IBU's but I forgot to make that change when I posted this thread. I had the IBU's high because that's fairly traditional for a big stout, but I had reduced them already to accommodate the bugs. I also am planning on doing a blend of sour critters, I only mentioned brett in the first post because that's the guy that traditionally has negative interactions with roasted malts. Say that I start the OG around 1.080 instead, how far down do you think that will attenuate with something like Roselare?

ive never heard of brett traditionally having negative interactions with roasted malts, brett L in particular would go great with them. its generally for sours that the roast can clash, esp since roast brings bitterness, which is why you want to lean more on the debittereds and carafas to have a smoother roast in a sour stout.

I would still reduce your IBUs and OG if you only plan to sour with Roe, the lacto in the mix isn't particularly strong. I rarely check my sour FG anymore, and looks like i didnt on either of my sour stouts, but I'd guess in the 1.012-1.018 range is where you will end

 

[dougdecinces]

ive never heard of brett traditionally having negative interactions with roasted malts, brett L in particular would go great with them. its generally for sours that the roast can clash, esp since roast brings bitterness, which is why you want to lean more on the debittereds and carafas to have a smoother roast in a sour stout.

I would still reduce your IBUs and OG if you only plan to sour with Roe, the lacto in the mix isn't particularly strong. I rarely check my sour FG anymore, and looks like i didnt on either of my sour stouts, but I'd guess in the 1.012-1.018 range is where you will end

What he said. Use debitterized malts and you'll be fine. Mine had some mild to moderately harsh roasty notes, but that's probably more due to the 1.005 FG than anything else. You can get good chocolate flavors from Carafa 2. And if it's not "stout" enough for you, what's stopping you from adding cacao nibs or coffee to secondary? I would lower your IBU to 10-15. And remember not to overdo the OG on your sours. Mine had an OG of 1.052 but had 6.2% ABV.

 

[dougdecinces]

Did you find that there were any strange flavors produced by having that much roasted malt in the grain bill? And that said how was the taste in other departments?

I bottled it in July and cracked open a few bottles in September. Since then I have been letting them age. I'll post some tasting notes next time I try one.

 

[BudzAndSudz]

What he said. Use debitterized malts and you'll be fine. Mine had some mild to moderately harsh roasty notes, but that's probably more due to the 1.005 FG than anything else. You can get good chocolate flavors from Carafa 2. And if it's not "stout" enough for you, what's stopping you from adding cacao nibs or coffee to secondary? I would lower your IBU to 10-15. And remember not to overdo the OG on your sours. Mine had an OG of 1.052 but had 6.2% ABV.

Oh I'm definitely familiar with the highly attenuative nature of sour bacteria and yeast, but remember I'm shooting for nearly 10% ABV with this puppy.

So if you look at the original recipe you'll see that all the roasted malts I have are debittered; carafa 2 and chocolate wheat. I think they should do fine to get me where I want to go.

I amended the recipe however to feature more of the crystal malts, because I'm hoping that some of those complex malt flavors will carry through (despite the guaranteed low FG) and be reminiscent of a stout through caramel flavors. Thoughts?

13 lb United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale
1 lb German - Chocolate Wheat
0.5 lb German - Melanoidin
1 lb American - Caramel / Crystal 80L
0.5 lb German - De-Husked Caraf II
1 lb American - Caramel / Crystal 40L

Target OG - 1.073

 

[dougdecinces]

I think it looks fine. Give it a whirl and tell me how it is in 18 months.