Sour Solera (2020)

[isomerization]

Creating this thread to keep track of a sour solera I just started and to post a few questions.

Brewed up 13 gal of 1.060 wort (65/35 Pilsner/wheat malt, plus 1.5 lb maltodextrin) last night. Mashed at 160F. Added 6 oz of debittered hops at 60 min.

Pitched two vials of the Yeast bay Melange along with dregs from Cantillon gueze and several FW barrelworks sours.

Fermenting in a 15 gal Kegmenter, should provide an excellent way to sample without adding oxygen, purge headspace and extend the potential life of the solera. Using a gas QD into a bottle of starsan while active fermentation is occurring, but will seal up for aging.

General questions I have:
1. Adding oak. Was considering adding reasonably well boiled French oak cubes in a nylon bag. Good idea or not? Thoughts on the amount to add?

2. Quantity of fresh wort to rotate in and how long to wait. Plan was to let his ride for at least 6 months, before doing any pulls. Was thinking 3-4 gal would be ideal. This kegmenter has a floating ball valve, so trub build up is a (future) concern.

I’m sure there will be other questions that pop up over time. Definitely interested in any suggestions/experiences that anyone would like to share regarding this process!

 

[Miraculix]

isn't micro oxidation necessary for the mos to work properly in these type of long term sours?

Anyway, cool project.

@RPh_Guy maybe?

 

[isomerization]

isn't micro oxidation necessary for the mos to work properly in these type of long term sours?

Anyway, cool project.

@RPh_Guy maybe?

I’m not sure how much O2 is needed though. I recall reading that the massive oak foeders used are actually quite limiting in oxygen ingress.

Either way, I will be introducing oxygen during wort additions and could open the PRV every so often.

 

[cactusgarrett]

1. Adding oak. Was considering adding reasonably well boiled French oak cubes in a nylon bag. Good idea or not? Thoughts on the amount to add?

2. Quantity of fresh wort to rotate in and how long to wait. Plan was to let his ride for at least 6 months, before doing any pulls. Was thinking 3-4 gal would be ideal. This kegmenter has a floating ball valve, so trub build up is a (future) concern.

I’m sure there will be other questions that pop up over time. Definitely interested in any suggestions/experiences that anyone would like to share regarding this process!

1. Oak - i would add AFTER pulling your solera (whenever that is - mine is yearly). Basically pull whatever amount you're going to remove each time and secondary with oak and whatever other adjuncts (fruit, etc.). That way, you can control the flavor profile. Personally, i like low and slow for amount and time regarding oak. For 5gal, i like 3 oz of cubes.

2. I think typically when people do soleras, you pull more than you leave behind, as the continued aging with new wort doesn't do much to the already finished portion. For example, when i do mine (yearly), of the 11 gallons total, I pull 8 gallons and treat separately (fruit, dry hop, etc.) and leave 3 gallons behind to work on the fresh wort.

 

[isomerization]

1. Oak - i would add AFTER pulling your solera (whenever that is - mine is yearly). Basically pull whatever amount you're going to remove each time and secondary with oak and whatever other adjuncts (fruit, etc.). That way, you can control the flavor profile. Personally, i like low and slow for amount and time regarding oak. For 5gal, i like 3 oz of cubes.

2. I think typically when people do soleras, you pull more than you leave behind, as the continued aging with new wort doesn't do much to the already finished portion. For example, when i do mine (yearly), of the 11 gallons total, I pull 8 gallons and treat separately (fruit, dry hop, etc.) and leave 3 gallons behind to work on the fresh wort.

I was thinking along the lines of mimicking an oak vessel by including throughout, but it’s probably better to control the oaking at the pull stage. 3 oz seems like a lot for 5 gallon, are you using charred French oak?

Most blogs/articles that I’ve read appear to do the opposite (leave more than pulled), so that the average age increases over time. I like the idea of getting 3 year old lambic (as an example) at each yearly pull.

 

[RPh_Guy]

A pretty strong case can be made for the benefit of micro-oxygenation that comes from using plastic or wooden vessels vs stainless or glass. If you get lucky and use the correct amount of hops to delay the bacteria just long enough AND allow micro-oxygenation, you can have a wonderful "traditional"-pitched funky and fruity sour beer ready in only 5-8 months.

Contrary to popular opinion, age doesn't necessarily improve it. The big producers generally age a long time for a variety of reasons, many of which don't apply to us.

I really like Stavin medium toast French oak cubes at 0.1-0.4oz per US gallon for light-medium oak character, NOT boiled. I haven't used other products. Using a bag is fine, but it will eventually sink if you don't tie it to something.

@cactusgarrett's advice is good for controlling the level, but either way works. I generally try to avoid racking so I oak in primary.

The average age increases over time regardless of whether you pull a majority or not (and some of the original batch is always present).

Cheers

 

[cactusgarrett]

I tend to pull more as my solera program in an HDPE drum is only into it's 3rd year, so I've had to make drastic course corrections based on the behavior of the entire thing. Replacing more, rather than retaining more, helps that redirection.

 

[isomerization]

I totally agree on that timeline. I’m not very patient, never had a sour stay in the fermenter for a full year. Fruited and straight lambic-style beers were still delicious.

With that said, I do think it’s a bit disingenuous to say that regarding age. Maybe you’re talking about 2+ years? I perceive improvements in the bottle, but could be biased. Could also be from bottling earlier than “normal”?

The beauty of this type of project is I can play around with lots of different variables. Thanks for the oak recommendation.

@cactusgarrett Any reason you haven’t pulled more often? Might give you more course control.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I perceive improvements in the bottle,

I was talking about aging beyond 9-12 months being generally unnecessary in circumstances with optimized processes. In some cases it can help (e.g. in a foeder since oxygen exposure is so low).

If you've been using glass/stainless, the improvements you've seen after bottling are likely the effects of adequate micro-oxygenation. At least that's what makes sense to me based on readings and my experience using glass and plastic.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Any reason you haven’t pulled more often? Might give you more course control.

Partly because it's actually taking that long for flavors to develop, partly because timelines line up for using it for blending with other beers.

 

[isomerization]

Partly because it's actually taking that long for flavors to develop, partly because timelines line up for using it for blending with other beers.

Guess you need to brew more often