Sour Mash for a berliner weisse

[richross]

I am looking to attempt my first berliner weisse in about a week. I am going to do a Laco starter to throw in at least 36 hours before my yeast hoping to really give it a head start. At the same time I am wanting to do a partial or perferably full sour mash. I have a small grain bill: 3lbs. white wheat, 3lbs. Pilsner, 1 lbs Carapils. My original recipe calls for a 152F mash and sparge with no boil. My question is; can I do my original recipe, transfer to a bucket with 1/2lb of pale malted barley to sour for a day or two...and then I'm stuck. I am doing no boil so do I just transfer full sour mash to my carboy and add the Lacto? Or back to my kettle, raise the temp to kill and unwanted bugs and then transfer to carboy? Or am I off all together? Any help please

 

[Native302]

I'm interested as well..

 

[passedpawn]

Good luck. I've smelled many sour mashes when I left grain in a bucket overnight. I just couldn't bring myself to brew with one of them. My BW's (I've done 4) were always with Wyeast lacto cultures (actually, I bought one and kept propagating it for the others).

 

[avidhomebrewer]

I've made a few BW's over the years and haven't used a sour mash either. In fact, I only made one brew that used a sour mash in the last 10+ years of brewing. I would just use the lacto to get the sourness. If possible, keep your lacto starter around 100 degrees to get it going.

 

[richross]

Thanks for the advice. Do you feel that you got the sourness that you were going for? I'll probably end up just going with the Lacto since I have not attempted a BW before.

 

[barrooze]

I believe the neat thing about sour mashes is when you do boil, you kill the bacteria, stopping the souring at that point. Since you're introducing additional bacteria with your Lacto starter, I think it'd be ok to follow your recipe as well as doing the sour mash. It'll definitely be a sour beer! Good luck! Let us know how it turns out.

How long are you going to ferment/sour it?

 

[richross]

I believe the neat thing about sour mashes is when you do boil, you kill the bacteria, stopping the souring at that point. Since you're introducing additional bacteria with your Lacto starter, I think it'd be ok to follow your recipe as well as doing the sour mash. It'll definitely be a sour beer! Good luck! Let us know how it turns out.

How long are you going to ferment/sour it?

That sounds like good advice. Maybe just do a quick 15 min boil to kill the bugs, cool to 90F. and pitch the Lacto starter. I was thinking of at most a month in primary to let the bugs do their thing and then transfering to secondary for about 2-3 months with about 5-6 pounds of blackberries that I picked during summer. Should be pretty interesting. Wanted to go traditional with no fruit but I couldn't help myself...should be interesting. Probably just test it every few weeks to see how the sourness/flavors are developing.

 

[joshareed]

I think a sour mash + lacto is an interesting idea. Pure lacto strains are less complex than a sour mash because the sour mash introduces more bugs than just lacto, but are far more consistent and reproducible. So a combination of both may give you some of the complexity with the safety net of pure lacto.

BTW, people always mention bad smells (BO, dirty socks, vomit) when the topic of sour mashing comes up but if you do it right you get none of that just clean sourness. The key is temperature and oxygen control. I've done a bunch of sour mashes of up to 5 days and never had any off flavors or smells before or after the boil.

 

[Airborneguy]

Sour Mash will definitely get you a sour beer, but from everything I read, it is not authentic and will not produce the flavors you want in a BW, if you are trying to match the style. If you aren't concerned with that, it totally doesn't matter. I'm just saying this as an FYI.

I have one in the primary right now. I did a homemade lacto starter with a handful or grains and a low-gravity wort. I kept it at about 100ºF for a few days and that thing took off, producing a monster pellicle. Right now, the BW has a ridiculous pellicle on it, which seems to be mixed with some krausen from the Kolsch yeast I threw in about 72 hours after pitching the Lacto. I did the no boil method with a double decoction.

 

[Brewmiser]

The key is temperature and oxygen control.

What all are you doing to control oxygen? I was just thinking of puting part of the wort to sour in a small cooler.

 

[rorygilmore]

Sour Mash will definitely get you a sour beer, but from everything I read, it is not authentic and will not produce the flavors you want in a BW, if you are trying to match the style. If you aren't concerned with that, it totally doesn't matter. I'm just saying this as an FYI.

Admittedly, I'm not very well versed on my Berliner Weisse history, but I would guess that back in the 15-18th centuries the sour mash would have been more likely than using a pure strain of lactobacillus delbrueckii.

I recently used a sour mash technique on a BW, and it scored a 46 in a BJCP sanctioned competition. I did a single decoction mash, sparged as normal, then transferred the wort to my sanitized 5 gallon jug cooler, and pitched about 4 ounces of grain once the temperature reached 125. 20 hours later (the temp dropped to 95), I briefly brought the temp of the wort up to 205 (yep, no boil), then cooled to 65 and pitched a neutral ale and various brett cultures. I think the initial 125 degrees pitch rate and 20 hours allowed for the perfect amount of sourness.

I thought the beer was really good even young, but really hit it's stride at about 6 months when the slight brett aroma/flavor started to appear.

One trick I've figured out with sour mashes is to fill the cooler with 4.5 gallons of wort, and then top off with a 2 liter bottle of carbonated water before quickly closing the lid. The carbonated water releases CO2, which seems to do a really good job of purging the headspace of O2, keeping oxygen friendly bacteria from producing off-flavors. I've done this technique a few times and I've never had a problem with bad smelling mashes. I wouldn't say the mash smells great (has a slight vegetal/cooked corn smell), but it doesn't smell awful either.

I would eliminate the carapils, however, if you're trying to stay traditional. At the very least, I would cut it down to 4 or 8 ounces at the most. I would guess the extra body would take away from the perceived dryness that is essential to the style and, in my opinion, makes the beer so refreshing.

 

[passedpawn]

Admittedly, I'm not very well versed on my Berliner Weisse history, but I would guess that back in the 15-18th centuries the sour mash would have been more likely than using a pure strain of lactobacillus delbrueckii.

I recently used a sour mash technique on a BW, and it scored a 46 in a BJCP sanctioned competition. I did a single decoction mash, sparged as normal, then transferred the wort to my sanitized 5 gallon jug cooler, and pitched about 4 ounces of grain once the temperature reached 125. 20 hours later (the temp dropped to 95), I briefly brought the temp of the wort up to 205 (yep, no boil), then cooled to 65 and pitched a neutral ale and various brett cultures. I think the initial 125 degrees pitch rate and 20 hours allowed for the perfect amount of sourness.

I thought the beer was really good even young, but really hit it's stride at about 6 months when the slight brett aroma/flavor started to appear.

One trick I've figured out with sour mashes is to fill the cooler with 4.5 gallons of wort, and then top off with a 2 liter bottle of carbonated water before quickly closing the lid. The carbonated water releases CO2, which seems to do a really good job of purging the headspace of O2, keeping oxygen friendly bacteria from producing off-flavors. I've done this technique a few times and I've never had a problem with bad smelling mashes. I wouldn't say the mash smells great (has a slight vegetal/cooked corn smell), but it doesn't smell awful either.

I would eliminate the carapils, however, if you're trying to stay traditional. At the very least, I would cut it down to 4 or 8 ounces at the most. I would guess the extra body would take away from the perceived dryness that is essential to the style and, in my opinion, makes the beer so refreshing.

Interesting post. Thanks. And, I agree 100% on the carapils comment.

 

[joshareed]

My sour mashing technique is pretty similar. I mash and sparge as normal than transfer back to my kettle. I pitch a couple ounces of grains and then put a layer of sanitized plastic wrap on the surface of the wort. My kettle will fit in my oven, so I just put the kettle into my oven and use an old baker's trick to maintain temp--just turn on the oven light. The heat from the light keeps everything in the upper 90s.

When I'm ready to brew, I just pull the kettle out, skim the grain off, and warm up on the stovetop for a BW or do an actual boil for something like a Kentucky Common.

 

[BenjaminBier]

It sounds like what you are working on is not a sour mash, but inoculating your wort with a wild lacto culture from your grain.

A proper sour mash is when you let the actual mash or at least a portion of the mash age for 12-48 hours at 100F. The portion of mash, or if you are seeking intense sourness the whole mash, is then heated by decoction or infusion to sacch rest temps, then sparged as normal. Boiling is optional but I assure you if your mash smells at all rotten, it will smell worse than a steaming vat of hot underpants once boiled.

Once you've got your sour wort from the mash, pitch an ale yeast of your choice. There's no point in pitching grains into your wort now, because it is already a delicious infusion of wet sheep odors and lemon juice. If you don't boil, you will have plenty of sour.

I agree with the others in skipping the cara pils. instead increase your malted wheat for color, flavor, and body.

 

[joshareed]

Do you get much conversion with water and grain mixed at 100F to give the lacto sugars to eat?

The process I'm describing is basically what Papizan, Jamil, and BYO is calling sour mashing, whether that's proper or not. It works for me but as with everything, YMMV.

 

[rorygilmore]

It sounds like what you are working on is not a sour mash, but inoculating your wort with a wild lacto culture from your grain.

A proper sour mash is when you let the actual mash or at least a portion of the mash age for 12-48 hours at 100F. The portion of mash, or if you are seeking intense sourness the whole mash, is then heated by decoction or infusion to sacch rest temps, then sparged as normal. Boiling is optional but I assure you if your mash smells at all rotten, it will smell worse than a steaming vat of hot underpants once boiled.

Both "sour mashing" and "sour worting" techniques get their sourness from wild lacto bacteria, the only difference is the steps are in different order, and they should produce similar, if not identical, results. Both techniques are similar in that the lacto does it's work prior to the boil (or near boil, in the case of the Berliner Weisse), and are considerably different than pitching a pure culture of lacto d into the fermenter after the boil. I personally prefer the "sour worting" route because it's nice to get conversion out of the way before the PH drop caused by the production of lactic acid.

Once you've got your sour wort from the mash, pitch an ale yeast of your choice. There's no point in pitching grains into your wort now, because it is already a delicious infusion of wet sheep odors and lemon juice. If you don't boil, you will have plenty of sour.

Nobody in this thread has said it's a good idea to pitch grains into the wort AFTER the boil, but IMHO the addition of a brett strain or two is a good source of additional complexity.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Sour Mash will definitely get you a sour beer, but from everything I read, it is not authentic and will not produce the flavors you want in a BW, if you are trying to match the style. If you aren't concerned with that, it totally doesn't matter. I'm just saying this as an FYI.

I have one in the primary right now. I did a homemade lacto starter with a handful or grains and a low-gravity wort. I kept it at about 100ºF for a few days and that thing took off, producing a monster pellicle. Right now, the BW has a ridiculous pellicle on it, which seems to be mixed with some krausen from the Kolsch yeast I threw in about 72 hours after pitching the Lacto. I did the no boil method with a double decoction.

The only way a sour mash is going to create something that doesn't taste like a BW is if you do it wrong and it comes out poorly. A properly executed sour mash is going to be cleanly lactic.

The first paragraph really doesn't make sense in the context of the second. Your "lacto starter" is a sour mash that you dumped into your wort/beer. The only difference between a sour mash and what you did is you infected the beer after the boil instead of before.

 

[Airborneguy]

The process is completely different. While the end result might be similar, I don't see how making a lacto starter seperately could be called the same as souring the entire mash. In the process I used, the mash is conducted just as any other decocted mash would be done. Also, when making the lacto starter, my process was much closer to how one makes a yeast starter than a sour mash.

I've never done the sour mash procedure, so I only repeated what I read. Most of my info came from Brewing with Wheat. I'm considering doing a sour mash version in a month or so to compare the two processes.

 

[BenjaminBier]

Both "sour mashing" and "sour worting" techniques get their sourness from wild lacto bacteria, the only difference is the steps are in different order, and they should produce similar, if not identical, results. Both techniques are similar in that the lacto does it's work prior to the boil (or near boil, in the case of the Berliner Weisse), and are considerably different than pitching a pure culture of lacto d into the fermenter after the boil. I personally prefer the "sour worting" route because it's nice to get conversion out of the way before the PH drop caused by the production of lactic acid.



Nobody in this thread has said it's a good idea to pitch grains into the wort AFTER the boil, but IMHO the addition of a brett strain or two is a good source of additional complexity.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you completely. I think souring the wort is way more controllable, especially if you've started your lacto culture separately or are using a pure strain. It's probably a more reliably good method than souring the mash.

There is something enjoyable, a little frightening for its unpredictability, but something exciting about making an experiment of it that is rewarding. If you are not purchasing the lacto there is also a financial benefit and it fulfuills the DIY impulse, too. I'm not saying either way is better, just that there are differences between the two methods and we don't need to double up sour mashing AND sour worting.

 

[barrooze]

Both "sour mashing" and "sour worting" techniques get their sourness from wild lacto bacteria, the only difference is the steps are in different order, and they should produce similar, if not identical, results. Both techniques are similar in that the lacto does it's work prior to the boil (or near boil, in the case of the Berliner Weisse), and are considerably different than pitching a pure culture of lacto d into the fermenter after the boil. I personally prefer the "sour worting" route because it's nice to get conversion out of the way before the PH drop caused by the production of lactic acid.

I'm really glad you wrote this since I was planning on doing a "sour worting" instead of "sour mashing". I have a cooler MLT and try to keep the bugs out of it as much as possible due to the soft plastic walls. I am planning on mashing out as usual, but then follow Papazian's instructions for souring the wort. It'll be interesting in the least!

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I'm really glad you wrote this since I was planning on doing a "sour worting" instead of "sour mashing". I have a cooler MLT and try to keep the bugs out of it as much as possible due to the soft plastic walls. I am planning on mashing out as usual, but then follow Papazian's instructions for souring the wort. It'll be interesting in the least!

Since bacteria naturally exists on the grain, it always gets into the cooler. Then you boil the wort and kill them all off.

 

[emjay]

Since bacteria naturally exists on the grain, it always gets into the cooler. Then you boil the wort and kill them all off.

This.

This is why there's no point in sanitizing the MLT (or your boil kettle, for that matter). Anything that touches the grain, and especially the sweet wort, before being boiled is going to come into contact with all kinds of bacteria. If the soft plastic is going to retain bacteria, I can guarantee you it's already swarming.

Also, this is why you should mill (and even store) your grain away from the rest of your equipment and fermentors.