sour kettling fruit juice

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Grod1

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Hey guys just over here thinking again.looking to have a discussion with like-minded people. If anyone has any sort of an opinion or original thought please share.
This is the idea.
Fruit juice/puree/ whole fruit in water or w/e. c02 purged. 90-120F temps with fresh lacto or pedio pitch.1-5 days depending on taste.
What do you think, crazy tart fruit flavors great for blending or some nasty crap?
other unanswered sour kettling ideas i have
herbal sour mash
secondary fermentation high temp souring
 
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Grod1

Grod1

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so just bumping this to see if anyone has any thoughts or has tried anything like it?
 

5mooth0perator

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I've wanted to do malolactic fermentation on blackberries, but to get a less sour flavor by converting malic acid to lactic acid. I haven't got around to it because the blackberries keep getting eaten.
 

RPh_Guy

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I like your thinking.

I have some concerns.
1. These would be wines, not beers. Here's a great list of recipes for fruit wines: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/request.asp

2. Wild yeast and bacteria could be problematic with fresh fruit.

3. Fruit are already very high in acid (some more than others). For example, the pH of lemon juice is 2.2. Fruits don't NEED to be soured.

4. Suppose you have a pasteurized fruit juice with pH 4, you add some LAB to get it down to pH 3.3. Then what? You'd still need to ferment somehow with yeast. The juice probably didn't have much buffering so the actual acid may be fairly low compared to a kettle-soured beer. So then you'd just have a fruit wine that's a little more tart than usual? If you ferment bone dry it might be undrinkably sour.

5. LAB actually metabolize other acids (such as malic acid) to lactic acid, which actually would make the juice LESS sour-tasting. I don't know the full extent of which acids are metabolized.

6. Remember that LAB do not grow in an environment that is too acidic, so any fruit juice with pH lower than 3.0 - 3.5 couldn't support LAB growth depending on the species.
 
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Grod1

Grod1

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hey man thanks so much for the link.
wild "bugs" would sure be a problem if the fruit was not pasteurized.Maybe in some cases they could be beneficial.Honestly i was thinking more in the lines of any delicious looking drink at the super market.
My intentions for this idea would be for blending not to experience the "sour kettled fruit juice" as a finished product.
Thank you so much for a well thought out response. cheers.
 

RPh_Guy

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? Adding fruit to a sour beer is fairly common. Fruit wine is fairly common. I'm not sure what I'm missing. The fruit itself didn't need to be soured.
 
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Grod1

Grod1

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no, fruit doesn't NEED to be soured. but what if it was? it dont think your missing anything.I guess im just trying to think outside the box.I have access to 15 bbls of properly aged brett beer and i would like to make interesting variants. Without introducing live "bugs" to the beer.
 

RPh_Guy

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no, fruit doesn't NEED to be soured. but what if it was? it dont think your missing anything.I guess im just trying to think outside the box.I have access to 15 bbls of properly aged brett beer and i would like to make interesting variants. Without introducing live "bugs" to the beer.
Well I suppose if you're thinking about trying to "sour" some pasteurized fruit juice to add to beer, my points 3, 5, & 6 still apply.

Some quick googling of pH level of various fruits will show most of them in the 2-4 range...
The plants make this acid as a defense against bacteria, and that's exactly what it does. Lactobacilli will not be able to make it any more sour because it is already too acidic for them to grow.

If you DO find a pure, pasteurized, preservative-free, fruit juice with pH over 3.3 that you want to try to sour (apple juice for example), there is still some concern that the LAB will metabolize the fruit acid (e.g. malic acid, which is the primary acid in apples) into lactic acid... thus reducing the sourness.
 
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