sour IPA - any experience?

[Kershner_Ale]

Anyone ever brewed a sour IPA? I don't mean an IPA fermented 100% with Brett, or sour ales that have been dry hopped. I mean an IPA with a distinctive lacto sourness element and a big level of IBUs. I've always been under the impression sour and bitterness do not mix well. But I see breweries like Green Bench in FL and Trinity in CO are brewing sour IPAs. My interest in brewing one stems from an upcoming competition where sour IPA is a side challenge. Before I commit a full 5 gallons, I'll likely try blending a sour ale and IPA just to experiment. But thought I'd toss this out to the group. Anyone have any insight? Thanks!

 

[bigplunkett]

Heres my thoughts hops + lactobacillus wont work anything over 15ibu kills it. So sourmash like in a gose. Mash like normal let it get down to 120 or so. U can pitch some lacto into the mash id use lactobacillus bruxis its a stronger strain mix it in the mash cover with plastic rap right on the grain to keep the other stuff out once u get the ph where u want it and its sour enough finish ur brew like normal. I helped my buddy do this one it took 3 days for the mash to get where we wanted. Also since its boiled u dont have to worrie abiut using sepret equipment.

 

[Kershner_Ale]

If I were to try it, I'm positive I would kettle sour first. Then boil it kill off the lacto and hop as usual for an IPA. Thus the hopping is after the fact and will not interfere with lacto doing its thing.

 

[Calder]

Not sure if you are ruining an IPA or a BW, either is sacrilegious.

Lacto and hops do not go together. Sour the wort first, by whatever means you prefer, and then boil and hop.

What hops are you thinking of? What goes with a sour? Simcoe - grapefruit, I think you are already there.

Come back with a 'real' evaluation of the results. I (and probably many others) think the two don't mix, but if you do it and are successful, maybe it will lead to some of us experimenting.

Good luck.

 

[microbusbrewery]

Check out this post from my blog, http://www.microbusbrewery.org/2014/09/super-juice-solution-trinity-brewing.html

Long story short, I tried to clone Red Swingline and Jason Yester at Trinity Brewing stumbled across my post. He sent me the recipe for Super Juice Solution which he said was basically the same as Red Swingline except it isn't aged in Chardonnay barrels. Mine turned out pretty good but the sourness was pretty subtle; I need to work on my kettle souring technique. Anyway, that post might help you out a little bit.

 

[MileHighBrewer]

Jason, aka Saison Man, rubs a LOT of people the wrong way. He is very opinionated but very knowledgable. He is also extremely generous and will help those who ask (time considered of coyrse, extremely busy man, works well into the dark AM every night). Loves to talk beer and is very open to sharing. If anyone has questions, toss him a line like above, you may get more then you would expect!

 

[Kershner_Ale]

Not sure if you are ruining an IPA or a BW, either is sacrilegious.

Lacto and hops do not go together. Sour the wort first, by whatever means you prefer, and then boil and hop.

What hops are you thinking of? What goes with a sour? Simcoe - grapefruit, I think you are already there.

Yeah, I didn't think the two would go well either. But then I see places like Green Bench Brewing (Surrealist IPA) and Trinity Brewing (Red Swingline 100 IBUs, 3.6 pH) producing sour IPAs and was curious how they could make it work.

I don't recall the name but I see New Belgium is producing a sour IPA where they're blending a portion of a lacto soured ale with a lower IBU IPA. Might be a way of keeping the two taste profiles from overwhelming the palate or clashing.

I'd definitely go with hops that lend a tropical fruit flavor / aroma.

Check out this post from my blog, http://www.microbusbrewery.org/2014/09/super-juice-solution-trinity-brewing.html

Long story short, I tried to clone Red Swingline and Jason Yester at Trinity Brewing stumbled across my post. He sent me the recipe for Super Juice Solution which he said was basically the same as Red Swingline except it isn't aged in Chardonnay barrels. Mine turned out pretty good but the sourness was pretty subtle; I need to work on my kettle souring technique. Anyway, that post might help you out a little bit.

Great, thank you for the link, will definitely check it out.

 

[youreanimpulse]

I did the Trinity recipe with very little modification last winter. Used fresh yogurt whey to sour pre-boil to 3.1 ph and then did a regular IPA boil, 40 (theoretical) IBUs bittering and a 5 oz really long hop stand at the end, then a 5 oz dry hop after fermenting with Conan. All Amarillo. It was delicious, like really really good. The bitterness doesn't come through, because apparently low ph has a large impact on hop utilization. I learned this from pros on Milk the Funk after I'd already done it. Next time I will actually up the theoretical IBUs to 80 or more, like Trinity says they do. I like their Red Swingline series quite a bit, and this was identical, but with a little less hop "bite."

 

[DaftCaskBC]

Be careful about the poison-tasting threshold. I probably wouldn't go too sour and I wouldn't go too bitter either. Maybe a pH of 4 and 45 IBUs tops.

 

[youreanimpulse]

The IBUs will be much less than theoretical because of the low ph boil. That was my point, at 3.1 ph 40 IBUs was non-existent. Now, if you want to do a traditional long sour, I'd be careful. Depending how long it'll go I usually don't go over 30. But a kettle soured IPA should be fine with more IBUs. And 4.0 ph is barely tart, not really the goal here, I think.

 

[Kershner_Ale]

Been researching this idea for awhile and am about to take my first run at brewing it. Here's the general plan of attack. Produce a wort of US 2 Row, 5% wheat (cause I have to put wheat in everything), 5% Munich 10L, and 5% Aromatic. Targeting OG of 1.060. Kettle sour with bottle dregs from Cascade Brewing (Lactobacillus brevis, I believe) maintaining a temperature of 110 F in my fermentation chamber. When a pH of 3.5 (based on calibrated probe readings) is reached, heat kettle up to a boil and do a standard 60 minute boil. Shooting for 55 IBUs, using neutral bittering hop like Magnum. Late hop additions of Amarillo and Citra (I want to emphasize tropical fruit notes). Ferment with Brett trois and Brett claussenii. Dry hop with Amarillo and Citra.

If the low pH inhibits the bitterness too much, I'll increase the IBUs on version 2. Will post results down the road.

P.S. Had my first bottle of New Belgium Le Terrior a few weeks ago. That stuff is magical! I realize its not a sour IPA but the aroma / flavor combination from a sour beer and dry hops was stellar.

 

[DaftCaskBC]

Been researching this idea for awhile and am about to take my first run at brewing it. Here's the general plan of attack. Produce a wort of US 2 Row, 5% wheat (cause I have to put wheat in everything), 5% Munich 10L, and 5% Aromatic. Targeting OG of 1.060. Kettle sour with bottle dregs from Cascade Brewing (Lactobacillus brevis, I believe) maintaining a temperature of 110 F in my fermentation chamber. When a pH of 3.5 (based on calibrated probe readings) is reached, heat kettle up to a boil and do a standard 60 minute boil. Shooting for 55 IBUs, using neutral bittering hop like Magnum. Late hop additions of Amarillo and Citra (I want to emphasize tropical fruit notes). Ferment with Brett trois and Brett claussenii. Dry hop with Amarillo and Citra.

If the low pH inhibits the bitterness too much, I'll increase the IBUs on version 2. Will post results down the road.

P.S. Had my first bottle of New Belgium Le Terrior a few weeks ago. That stuff is magical! I realize its not a sour IPA but the aroma / flavor combination from a sour beer and dry hops was stellar.

I have read that an ibu above 10 inhibits lacto growth. Maybe do an experiment with lactic acid and a beer at the ph you are shooting for in order to see if the flavours crash.

 

[Jacinthebox]

Our brew group won a comp back in November...as winners we got to brew two of our beers at a local brewery.

Dark Czech Lager and Sour IPA.

For the Sour IPA I made a sour starter (10gal) and then we pitched it into the kettle for 24hrs (after mashing).

we got the Ph to where we wanted, and then boiled for 90min...used a 10ibu FWH...and then whirlpooled post boil for 2 hours (180f for 60min, then 160f for 60min). The first whirlpool hop addition got us to 55ibu. The 2nd whirlpool was just for flavor and aroma.

"For those in Nova Scotia, Big Spruce will be debuting their newest conspiracy Thursday. JAC the SIPA is a Sour IPA, brewed with homebrewers Justin Clarke and Eric Gautier in early December. The beer was made sour using a kettle sour technique, during which natural Lactobacillus produces lactic acid from the wort in the warm (not hot) kettle; the wort is then boiled to kill the beasts, and then fermented using an ale yeast. This Sour IPA (the province’s first?) weighs in at 6.6% ABV and 55 IBUs, with big Amarillo and Simcoe late-, whirlpool-, and dry-hopping additions for tons of aroma. The beer will debut at the Local Connections event, and be available on tap and for growler fills after."

http://acbeerblog.ca/2016/01/08/friday-wrap-up-20160108/

I'm on the left...my brew buddy is on the right (he won the Dark Czech lager comp/ we took Gold and Bronze, also took Gold in Alt)

 

[Kershner_Ale]

I have read that an ibu above 10 inhibits lacto growth. Maybe do an experiment with lactic acid and a beer at the ph you are shooting for in order to see if the flavours crash.

Yes, Lactobacillus is inhibited when IBU levels get above a certain point. With the kettle souring technique I'll be using, I'm souring with Lacto first. Then boiling to kill the Lacto and adding hops afterwards. So the Lacto is already dead when the hops go in.

 

[Kershner_Ale]

Good stuff Jacinthebox! Congrats on the collaboration brews. Some of my most memorable brewing experiences have been the collaborations I got to do with breweries. I may shoot you a question or two on your Sour IPA as I think through the process a bit more.

Our brew group won a comp back in November...as winners we got to brew two of our beers at a local brewery.

Dark Czech Lager and Sour IPA.

For the Sour IPA I made a sour starter (10gal) and then we pitched it into the kettle for 24hrs (after mashing).

we got the Ph to where we wanted, and then boiled for 90min...used a 10ibu FWH...and then whirlpooled post boil for 2 hours (180f for 60min, then 160f for 60min). The first whirlpool hop addition got us to 55ibu. The 2nd whirlpool was just for flavor and aroma.

"For those in Nova Scotia, Big Spruce will be debuting their newest conspiracy Thursday. JAC the SIPA is a Sour IPA, brewed with homebrewers Justin Clarke and Eric Gautier in early December. The beer was made sour using a kettle sour technique, during which natural Lactobacillus produces lactic acid from the wort in the warm (not hot) kettle; the wort is then boiled to kill the beasts, and then fermented using an ale yeast. This Sour IPA (the province’s first?) weighs in at 6.6% ABV and 55 IBUs, with big Amarillo and Simcoe late-, whirlpool-, and dry-hopping additions for tons of aroma. The beer will debut at the Local Connections event, and be available on tap and for growler fills after."

http://acbeerblog.ca/2016/01/08/friday-wrap-up-20160108/

I'm on the left...my brew buddy is on the right (he won the Dark Czech lager comp/ we took Gold and Bronze, also took Gold in Alt)

 

[Jacinthebox]

Good stuff Jacinthebox! Congrats on the collaboration brews. Some of my most memorable brewing experiences have been the collaborations I got to do with breweries. I may shoot you a question or two on your Sour IPA as I think through the process a bit more.

sounds good and thanks

 

[505-Brewer]

Our brew group won a comp back in November...as winners we got to brew two of our beers at a local brewery.



Dark Czech Lager and Sour IPA.



For the Sour IPA I made a sour starter (10gal) and then we pitched it into the kettle for 24hrs (after mashing).



we got the Ph to where we wanted, and then boiled for 90min...used a 10ibu FWH...and then whirlpooled post boil for 2 hours (180f for 60min, then 160f for 60min). The first whirlpool hop addition got us to 55ibu. The 2nd whirlpool was just for flavor and aroma.



"For those in Nova Scotia, Big Spruce will be debuting their newest conspiracy Thursday. JAC the SIPA is a Sour IPA, brewed with homebrewers Justin Clarke and Eric Gautier in early December. The beer was made sour using a kettle sour technique, during which natural Lactobacillus produces lactic acid from the wort in the warm (not hot) kettle; the wort is then boiled to kill the beasts, and then fermented using an ale yeast. This Sour IPA (the province’s first?) weighs in at 6.6% ABV and 55 IBUs, with big Amarillo and Simcoe late-, whirlpool-, and dry-hopping additions for tons of aroma. The beer will debut at the Local Connections event, and be available on tap and for growler fills after."



http://acbeerblog.ca/2016/01/08/friday-wrap-up-20160108/



I'm on the left...my brew buddy is on the right (he won the Dark Czech lager comp/ we took Gold and Bronze, also took Gold in Alt)

Hey thats excellent congrats. Is that theoretical ibus or do they have a spectrometer? I might be in Nova Scotia later this year. Have to check out that brewery when Im there. Cheers.

Anyone seen any quantitative articles on pH and effects on IBUs. Must be documented in the literature. Need to make time to look I suppose.

 

[Jacinthebox]

Hey thats excellent congrats. Is that theoretical ibus or do they have a spectrometer? I might be in Nova Scotia later this year. Have to check out that brewery when Im there. Cheers.

Anyone seen any quantitative articles on pH and effects on IBUs. Must be documented in the literature. Need to make time to look I suppose.

That would be theoretical IBUs.

Lots of great new breweries open in the Halifax area & all over Nova Scotia now...and more opening soon. Craft beer scene here is looking good

 

[Kershner_Ale]

The extended whirlpool is a cool approach. Definitely adds to the brew day so glad there's some benefit to it.

 

[Owly055]

I definitely agree with those who assert that sour and bitter do not play well together.... at least to my palate. I've made a few sours, and found the best approach for me is to make two beers and blend to taste. My process has always been sour mash.

 

[Jacinthebox]

55ibu work well with the sour IMO...honestly this beer could handle a few more...maybe up to 60.
The 1st whirlpool adds bitterness, but it's smooth not harsh at all

 

[martyjhuebs]

I dont see any other way to do this than to sour mash so that you can kill the lacto before the hop additions. Do it berliner weisse style and sour the entire mash for 3 days. While the idea of a sour IPA may be great, the beer may not be. I had a sour IPA by the name of Super Juice from Trinity. I personally love sours and IPAs. The sour IPA was worth the experience but I couldnt imagine drinking 5 gallons of it.

 

[Jacinthebox]

Kettle sour for sure...

I say go for it...you may like the results...I did

 

[fermentology]

Dry hopping sours is something I'm planning on getting more into. I've brewed one before, using my standard procedure for sours. I personally think that bitterness clashes with sourness, so I opted for only flame out hops and dry hops. I also mash in the mid 140sF for a quicker sour (usually 2-3 months). I end up with more of a clean Lacto sourness as opposed to a more aggressive Pedio sourness. Needless to say what came out was one of my all time favorite beers that I've brewed.

The acidity really brought out the juiciness of the hops.

 

[Shockerengr]

I've got one on tap at home, although the initial try fits more as a Sour APA than IPA.

Kettle soured, pH of 3.75 and 40 calc'd IBU, all through whirlpool. Lots of citrus fruit hops and fermented with WLP 644. OG around 1.050, FG about 1.010

I kept the pH and IBU a bit restrained to get a baseline without risking it being out of wack or undrinkable. It turned out delicious, the bitterness and sourness are restrained a bit, but it is tart a lightly bitter which balances sweetness nicely. Fruity hops and tartness go very well together.

Next round I'll push things further, and try for a higher FG/more body and a longer whirlpool.

Don't let folks tell you sour and bitter don't work together. It's been done in mixed drinks for a long time with good results. Just gotta maintain balance.

 

[DaftCaskBC]

I would do a sour mash. About 6 ibu bittering to let the lacto work it's magic during kettle souring. Finish off with Vermont IPA yeast or Conan. Lastly aggressively dry hop with fruity hops. That way if it is too bitter the dry hops will eventually fade with time.

 

[Kershner_Ale]

Sour mash and kettle souring are two different processes, no? I'll stick with kettle souring, it works well with my set up.

 

[505-Brewer]

That would be theoretical IBUs.



Lots of great new breweries open in the Halifax area & all over Nova Scotia now...and more opening soon. Craft beer scene here is looking good

Excellent. I might have to ping you for recommendations later this summer. Plan to Rude the Cabot trail and Trans Labrador later this summer. Never been up that way. Super excited.

 

[Jacinthebox]

Excellent. I might have to ping you for recommendations later this summer. Plan to Rude the Cabot trail and Trans Labrador later this summer. Never been up that way. Super excited.

awesome...big spruce brewery is just before the Cabot Trail

 

[DaftCaskBC]

Sour mash and kettle souring are two different processes, no? I'll stick with kettle souring, it works well with my set up.

Many pro brewers start with a sour mash approaching a pH of 5.2 prior to kettle souring in order to kickstart the process.

 

[martyjhuebs]

Sour mash and kettle souring are two different processes, no? I'll stick with kettle souring, it works well with my set up.

I personally prefer to sour mash my entire grain bill and after the souring I sparge as normal and then boil. Kettle souring is just souring the wort after the mash. So yes, 2 different processes.

 

[Jacinthebox]

Beer went over very well at the beer show...few untappd reviews

https://untappd.com/b/big-spruce-brewing-jac-the-sipa/1384104