Sour Ciders?

[HopSong]

"Everyone" is brewing saisons and sours and.... you name it. But summer types are definitely a rage.

So, the thought that popped up is.. what about a sour type cider? Would that be just cider vinegar or what?

I'm sure others must have considered some such drink.

 

[JKaranka]

Some ciders are very tart but I wouldn't go as far as calling them sour. A sour snakebite is super tasty, though. I made one un a pub a few weeks ago with a Kernel sour saison and a single varietal medium cider and it was excellent.

 

[TommyHop]

This is on my to-do list. I foresee many hurdles but could prove interesting.

If you want to try some lactobacillus/pediococcus and/or brett, I'd recommend trying it in secondary first. It's potent stuff and may create unpalatable results, requiring age to mellow or too far gone to save.

Vinegar is made by the presence of oxygen and acetobacte contamination. So if you don't splash the must around while transfering, maintain good sanitation practices and seal your vessel with an airlock, you should be fine.

Cheers and good luck,
T

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Agreed on both accounts. had a talk with a friend at work the other day about this very thing. My recommendation was to ferment dry with ale yeast, then blend it with some portion of straight bug (lacto/brett/whatever blend you want) fermented.

Start with 4 gal ale, 1 gal bug.

Alternatively, ferment straight to dry with just ale, Then rack onto some fresh juice and pitch your blend of choice.

OR ferment to dry, then pitch bugs and some unfermentable sugar. maltodextrine/lactose or something. Should increase the body a bit, and the unfermentables will be eaten by just the bugs.

 

[SomersetRedstreak]

Here in the UK, we have some varieties of cider apples that naturaly yield super sour cider when fermented out dry as a single varietal cider.
Foxwhelp, a bittersharp from Gloucester is really sour, like lemon juice, but with a very distinctive smell and taste in the finish.
'Fair Maid of Devon' & 'Tom Putt' make a pretty sour cider too!

 

[SomersetRedstreak]

Sorry, just realised my last contribution isn't relevant to this thread.
But hey, I just wanted to big up some of my favourite naturally sour cider apples!

 

[JKaranka]

Hah, I planted bot Tom Putt and Fair Maid of Devon. Quite a lot of bang to go with the Tremlett!

 

[SomersetRedstreak]

JK, Tremletts Bitter is my favourite cider apple! I love that hard tannic bite. Sounds like you've got a perfect blend there!

 

[gregbathurst]

Cider is quite different to beer. Lactobacillus will actually make cider less sour, rather than more sour. Cider like wine undergoes MLF, usually either lactobacillus or oenococcus, lacto only if the pH is high, oenococcus if the pH is under 3.5. MLF converts malic acid to lactic acid which is less sour. Lacto is a type of LAB (lactic acid bacteria), these are the bacteria which do MLF.

 

[madscientist451]

Rev. Nat's cider has a lacto sour cider, the website says he has "unlocked" the secret of using lacto in cider:

http://reverendnatshardcider.com/ciders/sacrilege-sour-cherry/

I can't get this cider where I'm located, but would like to try it.
When the sour cherries are ready in the orchards here I'm going to add 1 lb/gallon to some already fermented cider I have.
I'm thinking Rev. Nat is adding the lacto before regular fermentation, like you would "kettle sour" beer. Maybe even holding the apple juice w/lacto at 100F for a few days to help the lacto growth?
He's most likely using cherry concentrate and adding sugar to get the ABV to 7.6%?
Which lacto strain is best to use?
There's a thread on reddit where someone used brett brux from Wyeast in treetop apple juice &
another threat from HBT where a recipe and method is described that looks good:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=6916408
Cigar city cider and mead has a sour cider and the madfermentaionist has a blog entry I haven't gotten to yet, so there's a lot of info out there. Good Luck !

 

[Gitmoe]

Rev. Nat's cider has a lacto sour cider, the website says he has "unlocked" the secret of using lacto in cider:

http://reverendnatshardcider.com/ciders/sacrilege-sour-cherry/

I can't get this cider where I'm located, but would like to try it.
When the sour cherries are ready in the orchards here I'm going to add 1 lb/gallon to some already fermented cider I have.
I'm thinking Rev. Nat is adding the lacto before regular fermentation, like you would "kettle sour" beer. Maybe even holding the apple juice w/lacto at 100F for a few days to help the lacto growth?
He's most likely using cherry concentrate and adding sugar to get the ABV to 7.6%?
Which lacto strain is best to use?
There's a thread on reddit where someone used brett brux from Wyeast in treetop apple juice &
another threat from HBT where a recipe and method is described that looks good:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=6916408
Cigar city cider and mead has a sour cider and the madfermentaionist has a blog entry I haven't gotten to yet, so there's a lot of info out there. Good Luck !

Its not hard really. Throw some grain into a bucket of juice for 24-48 hours until it's soured appropriately to your taste. Heat the batch over 140 for 10 minutes ( don't boil ). Let cool and pitch. It's the same as doing a sour mash for a Berliner. Not a huge secret. You could just add a Lacto culture if you want insurance and consistency.

7.6% is well within the natural parameters for most cider apples without adding any sugar pre fermentation. The base juice I use is consistently 6.7% naturally and I use a lot of lower sugar apples.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

My experience is almost all juice/cider starts at 1.050-1.055 OG and ferments dry 1.003-0.998. Never seen any juice that starts at 1.060 personally, but it's not too crazy.

 

[madscientist451]

Its not hard really. Throw some grain into a bucket of juice for 24-48 hours until it's soured appropriately to your taste. Heat the batch over 140 for 10 minutes ( don't boil ). Let cool and pitch. It's the same as doing a sour mash for a Berliner. Not a huge secret. You could just add a Lacto culture if you want insurance and consistency.

7.6% is well within the natural parameters for most cider apples without adding any sugar pre fermentation. The base juice I use is consistently 6.7% naturally and I use a lot of lower sugar apples.

Tests I've run with tree ripened fruit show most commercial apple varieties and some older heirloom varieties
are going to produce a juice around 1.050, with a few coming in at 1.060.
However, using all high sugar apples doesn't make the best cider.
Decent blends for cider in my tests come in at about 1.050-1.055.
This would be consistent with the "base juice" you are using if you ferment to dry.
Cherry juice from montmorency cherries can run from 1.060 to 1.080 but that information comes from published data, not my own tests.
Maybe a high percentage of cherry juice added to apple gets Rev. Nat's up to 7.6%? Or he's blending the cherry with a tart apple juice like Granny Smith? I'm going to try apple/cherry combinations this fall, and the pre fermentation lacto with several different strains as well.

Here's a link to gravity of apple and other fruit juice by variety.
Note that fruit changes year to year and different locations can affect the sugar content.
http://www.brsquared.org/wine/CalcInfo/FruitDat.htm

 

[Gitmoe]

I ferment all my ciders dry. I own a hard cider company and I'm the head cidermaker as well. I do some freelance design work for another local winery that makes cider too. They just had a Golden Russet / Idared blend ferment naturally to almost 10%.

 

[gregbathurst]

If you live in a warm sunny climate it is fairly easy to get your apples above 1.060 in a good year. This year most of my cider is above 8% abv. my record is 1.108. A lot depends on your cropping yield, a heavy crop means lower sugar, a light crop and a good sunny year and the sugar can go very high.

 

[madscientist451]

I ferment all my ciders dry. I own a hard cider company and I'm the head cidermaker as well. I do some freelance design work for another local winery that makes cider too. They just had a Golden Russet / Idared blend ferment naturally to almost 10%.

The apples around here don't get that high in OG; Ida red I can get, Golden Russet, probably not. guess I'll have to get some apples from further east of here this season and run some more tests to see what I come up with.

 

[Gitmoe]

The apples around here don't get that high in OG; Ida red I can get, Golden Russet, probably not. guess I'll have to get some apples from further east of here this season and run some more tests to see what I come up with.

Those Golden Russet and Idared were from Fruit Valley Orchards up in the Finger Lakes.