Something wrong with my Milk stout!

[alegi]

Hello,

I made a milk stout today and used water additions to improve it, but when I tasted the wort it was not as sweet as I thought it would be.

This is my water report:

Ca+2: 23
Mg+2: 4
Na+: 11
CI-: 13
SO4-2: 35
HCO3: 50
pH: 8.4
Alkalinity: 41

The treatment I used was:

1.5 gram CaCO3
1.5 gram NaHCO3
0.4 gram CaCI2
1.0 gram NaCI

And I got this from it:

Adjusted Water:

Ca+2: 68
mg+2: 4
Na+: 102
CI: 102
SO-4: 35
HCO3: 272
Alkalinity: 223

I also used 7,2 gram PH 5.2 Stabilizator with the rest.

mashed this in 69C in 60 min. BIAB with 9L water to get a 5L batch.

This is my recipe:

0.85 kg Pilsner (2 Row) UK (2.0 EBC) 65.5 %
0.06 kg Chocolate Dark 6-Row (Briess) (827.4 EBC) 5.0 %
0.06 kg Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (925.9 EBC) 4.6 %
0.06 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (236.4 EBC) 4.6 %
0.05 kg Cafe (450.0 EBC) 3.9 %
0.05 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC) 3.9 %
0.04 kg Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) 3.3 %
0.12 kg Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 EBC) 9.2 %
5.00 g Goldings, East Kent [5.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 9 16.5 IBUs
5.00 g Goldings, East Kent [5.70 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 8.2 IBUs

What went wrong?

Is it the recipes fault? or the water treatment? Anyone has a good water profile for a sweet milk stout with lots of malt flavor?

Please help!

 

[Yooper]

Well, there are a couple of mistakes in the water treatment. First, don't use that stabilizer stuff- it doesn't work and it tastes bad besides. So leave that out.

Next, don't use chalk, ever. It doesn't dissolve properly.

but, that doesn't mean anything right now because your complaint is that the wort doesn't taste sweet. That's probably because roasted malt just doesn't taste sweet- it tastes harsh and burnt. Once the beer ferments, it will be totally different.

 

[alegi]

Thanks,

I should wait until the fermentation is done. But next time I will try to do without the ph stabilizator. But what are the salts that are used in Stouts or in particular Milk stouts?

Would u mind put up a good water profile, or change mine to something u think would work?

Should I steep the dark malt and put it in the wort before boiling? Would that help some?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks,

I should wait until the fermentation is done. But next time I will try to do without the ph stabilizator. But what are the salts that are used in Stouts or in particular Milk stouts?

Would u mind put up a good water profile, or change mine to something u think would work?

Should I steep the dark malt and put it in the wort before boiling? Would that help some?

You don't really need anything to make a good milk stout- except to hit the proper mash pH. I like to add a little calcium chloride to low calcium water when I make a stout, but that's about it.

There are free brewing spreadsheets out there online that can help you predict the probably mash pH with your water and your grains, and you want to target a mash pH of 5.4-5.5 or so for the best flavor but a little higher or a little lower is fine.

 

[ajdelange]

It's hard to say what may be at play here. A more fundamental observation than lack of expected sweet taste would be the measured gravity. Was it near expectations?

You put in a lot of bicarbonate and a lot of carbonate. Between the two of them they could (subject to a bunch of assumptions about your malts) pull mash pH all the way up to 6.1 (you'd want 5.5 or less). This is pretty high but is it high enough to keep the enzymes from doing their jobs to the extent that conversion would be impaired? The original hydrometer reading will tell you that.

It is probable that no more than half the calcium carbonate reacted during the mash. That would result it a mash pH 0.2 lower (i.e. around 5.9). Still too high but not as high as 6.1. The problem here is that some of the undissolved/unreacted carbonate will make it through the lauter/sparge process and into the kettle where it will continue to react and thus continue to hold pH high. This is really the main reason for not using calcium carbonate in beer mash.

Another problem here is with the use of 5.2. It won't pull this mash pH to 5.2. I included it in the mash pH calculations I did above and found that it does help, from the mash pH perspective, a bit because it is mostly NaH2PO4 which is an acid. It would pull the mash pH down by about 0.05 pH relative to where it would be without it. But it adds a lot of sodium. With the sodium from the added NaCl I estimate the sodium content of the kettle wort would be almost 200 mg/L plus whatever was in the water originally. After boiling down to 5/9 of that the beer's sodium would be about 355 mg/L. That is a lot of sodium. Perhaps the wort didn't taste sweet because the sweetness was masked by a salty taste.

Clearly you consulted one of those spreadsheets, calculators, magazine articles or books on brewing that says that if you are doing a dark beer you need to add lots of chalk and/or bicarbonate. That isn't true. Your water is pretty good for most stouts as is. As for the sodium: skip the 5.2 and don't add the NaCl unless taste tests on beer brewed without it to which a pinch of salt has been added taste better. Try getting the chloride from calcium chloride too.

 

[alegi]

Thanks again,

I thought there was something you could do with water treatment to achieve higher sweetness in milk stout.

Like I read this on a site:

"Keep the Chloride to Sulfate ratio high, around 3 to 1. Ensure Chloride and Sodium are both above 100" this was for milk stout that is.

Then I read about chloride and sodium, and learned that it can make it sweeter, or anyhow make the sweetness taste better.

Since I have 11 in NA+ and 13 in CI, I thought I had to increase it. But what really matters is actually to get the PH right? That I will try next time.

But I think I will also try steep if nothing else works.

 

[Yooper]

T
Like I read this on a site:

"Keep the Chloride to Sulfate ratio high, around 3 to 1. Ensure Chloride and Sodium are both above 100" this was for milk stout that is.

All I can say is that bad advice is all over the internet. While it is true that a higher chloride (but NEVER over 100) can enhance mouthfeel, it has nothing to do with the sulfate, and the sodium may (or may not) help, but it can be used in much smaller amounts (as AJ said above) if you think it does help.

Remember, in most cases, "Less is more" is good practice. You have pretty good water to start with and that helps.

Also, pretend that you never heard the expression "chloride to sulfate ratio", and your beer will be better.

As an example, in that case, they suggest 3 to 1. But there is a HUGE difference between 30 ppm of chloride: 1 ppm sulfate vs 300 ppm of chloride: 100 ppm sulfate.

In other words, ignore the "ratio" and use the correct amounts for the flavor you want to impart. Just like when you cook, you don't use garlic and salt in a 3:1 ratio- you may use whatever garlic and salt you need for the proper balance of flavors.

 

[ajdelange]

..you don't use garlic and salt in a 3:1 ratio-

I hope not. That's much too low! Did you know that most cooking books are way off probably due to a translation error from the Italian? Where they say 'clove' clearly they really mean 'head'.

 

[ajdelange]

Then I read about chloride and sodium, and learned that it can make it sweeter, or anyhow make the sweetness taste better.

Yes, you can and it does.

Since I have 11 in NA+ and 13 in CI, I thought I had to increase it.

That may turn out to be a good idea and your NaCl addition would have been OK but for all the sodium from the 5.2. Don't use that stuff and you will have 'head room' for sodium chloride additions. But as I noted in the previous post it is a good idea to start with the 'less is better' assumption and experiment with additions of chloride (calcium or sodium) while tasting the less is better beer in order to obtain guidance about the addition of extra chloride in the next brew.

But what really matters is actually to get the PH right?

Yes. Getting the mineral balance right leaves you far short if the malt flavors (controlled to a large extent by mash pH) are not right.

 

[alegi]

Well thank you all for helping me with this, I think I got the information right, Im starting to understand it better now. And I stopped with the 5,2 ph stablilizator, used acid to drop my pH and used less salts + controlled pH, I do believe it will taste better this time.